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Chionophile


Posts: 692
Joined: Jan 2009
Last Visited: 22:07
24th Jan 2016
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 15.56hrs on Wed 4 Nov 09
Firefly, I had no sooner finished the above post when I thought of another idea. The Rev Ronald Burn, a keen hillwalker and Munro-bagger of the early 1900s, kept detailed diaries and was an avid collector of local place names as heard from indigenous resident shepherds, gamekeepers and deerstalkers when Gaelic was still the first language. I have just looked at his place-name notes for Lochaber. He heard much useful information from the shepherds' sons at Achintee. They said the corrie between Aonach Beag and Aonach Mor was not An Cul Choire as on OS maps, but Coire na Cailliche, the last word pronounced by them like CAILLE, i.e. corrie of the witch or old woman. So maybe the unusual snow patch has a guardian, a Cailleach!

WelshWizard


Posts: 215
Joined: Feb 2009
Last Visited: 13:20
3rd May 2015
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 16.01hrs on Wed 4 Nov 09
Firefly, (or others) you say grade 5 - as a new follower of your efforts could you explain your grading system please? (I did a quick search but didn't find anything)

It sounds that this year has been fairly typical for the amount of snow remaining?

firefly


Posts: 2149
Joined: May 2006
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 17.20hrs on Wed 4 Nov 09
Wow! Many questions and interesting information. You can't take your eye off this thread for too long or you'll miss something important! smiling smiley

Alex, a favourite? I generally don't like to anthropomorphize, but you do become attached in a curious way to these strange little patches of dirty snow that cling on with their finger-tips for dear life! I guess that's because so much time and attention is invested in their condition that there is bound to be a sadness if they do go. I've only being doing this a few years (properly; much longer as an observer), so when Sphinx patch vanished in 1996 after 37-years it must have been like a dagger in the heart to Chionophile! I have a few 'pets', as I call them. Ben More's (Crianlarich) Cuidhe Chrom, Buachaille Etive Mor's Great Gully snow and, of course, Aonach Beag. The latter is truly remarkable for its altitude and longevity, and for that reason I'd be sorry to see it go more than any other.

WelshWizard, the grading system is Chionophile's. He uses it to categorize the snow when viewing it from a distance, or when measurement is not possible or practicable. A grade 5 refers to snow that is between 12.5m and 25m long. I can't remember the rest off the top of my head, but perhaps Chionophile will oblige.

Chionophile, excellent information about the corrie! That'll do for me! I shall henceforth refer to it as such. Is it just me, or can you see the witch's head facing the cliffs, with crooked nose and furrowed brow?! I wonder...



Jamie


Posts: 987
Joined: Jan 2002
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 19.06hrs on Wed 4 Nov 09
Great detective work, Chionophile! I think the line leading down to the snow patch would make for a great spring ski descent, so it's great to know the name for the coire.

However, I am afraid firefly that a unicorn is all I can see in your picture!

Chionophile


Posts: 692
Joined: Jan 2009
Last Visited: 22:07
24th Jan 2016
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 21.35hrs on Wed 4 Nov 09
WelshWizard Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Firefly, (or others) you say grade 5 - as a new
> follower of your efforts could you explain your
> grading system please?

As Firefly stated, I devised a method for grading or scoring the lengths of snow patches when seen from afar, and again as he stated, grade or score 5 covers lengths from 12.5 to 25 metres. The scale is based on doubling or halving, so a 6 is 25-50 m, a 7 is 50-100 m, an 8 100-200, a 9 200-400 and so on up to a 12 at 1600-3200 m, which sometimes occurs at the start of July on Ben Macdui in a snowy year. If we go below grade or score 5, there is a 4 at 6-12.5 m, a 3 at 3-6 m, a 2 at 1.5-3 m, and a 1 anything less than 1.5 m. I tested my accuracy at scoring by making assessments at a distance from good viewpoints on several days, involving a large randomly chosen sample of snow patches of varying length from small to big, and later in the same day measuring their real lengths by tape. The method is described in more detail, along with some results, in a scientific paper in 1994 by me, Richard Davison and Don French, in the journal Arctic and Alpine Research.
Adam Watson



firefly


Posts: 2149
Joined: May 2006
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 21.44hrs on Wed 4 Nov 09
Lots of fresh snow on Ben Nevis today, as reported by Alan Halewood.

Doug_Bryce


Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 21.46hrs on Wed 4 Nov 09
Maybe its just Hallowen...
But with a little imagination the top of snow patch could be a witches hat grinning smiley

Quote:
I think the line leading down to the snow patch would make for a great spring ski descent


Yup - would be good for a spring ski Jamie. Faces NE and holds the snow really well. Just a shame that corrie does't go anywhere... More remote than even summit or spikes!

5th May 2006.



The Witches coire isnt far from where I saw this.
1500ft+ full depth slide in May eye popping smiley



[www.haggistrap.co.uk]



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 21.51hrs Wed 4 Nov 09 by Doug_Bryce.

Attachments: 1.JPG (29kB)   0.JPG (46kB)  
firefly


Posts: 2149
Joined: May 2006
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 07.14hrs on Thu 5 Nov 09
A cracking picture from Alan Halewood taken yesterday on Tower Ridge. The main patch is easily visible, but the one to the left is a bit more difficult to discern. Not sure if there are any now buried!



WelshWizard


Posts: 215
Joined: Feb 2009
Last Visited: 13:20
3rd May 2015
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 02.23hrs on Fri 6 Nov 09
Chionophile, Wow! Thanks for explaining.

This is all very interesting stuff, you mention a paper - is this academic research (PhD) or / both a love of it? (knowing that to do research long term there has to be a love!) Anyhow, my 6 year old nephew will be getting a snow update when I next speak to him, I mentioned before he was mighty impressed snow had lasted the summer back in September!

Another question, mentioned before there are a number of lichens / mosses that only exist where snow lies late into the year, if we start seeing many more years without summer snow how many of these species are likely to become extinct in the UK?

Otherwise nice to see some snow, time to wax skis?

firefly


Posts: 2149
Joined: May 2006
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 08.44hrs on Fri 6 Nov 09
WelshWizard, the paper to which Chionophile refers to is this one.

You ask about mosses & lichens etc. The BBC did a feature on it last year, which explains the theory behind it: [news.bbc.co.uk]

The report itself is misleading, and fails to credit the research done by others (Adam Watson et al) but the overall content about areas of long-lying snow harbouring rare mosses etc is, I believe, accurate.

WelshWizard


Posts: 215
Joined: Feb 2009
Last Visited: 13:20
3rd May 2015
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 10.18hrs on Fri 6 Nov 09
Many thanks. Interesting, if concerning, times ahead!

Chionophile


Posts: 692
Joined: Jan 2009
Last Visited: 22:07
24th Jan 2016
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 10.40hrs on Fri 6 Nov 09
Firefly is on the ball as ever, answering the main points of WelshWizard's queries while I was out taking my car for its MOT on a frosty morning! We are getting frosts every night and cool days with showers, so the remaining old snow should be replenished a wee bit.

I will add some words on your queries, WelshWizard. On your question of whether my long-term study of snow patches was for a PhD, the answer is no. I did the fieldwork because I was fascinated by snow and snow patches. The work later turned out in the last two decades to be of interest to people concerned about global climatic warming, but that is merely a nice bonus, not why I did it. As the Americans might say, I did it for the hell of it, or as you put it, for the love of it!

On your question about mosses, Firefly correctly states that certain species of plants favour long-lying snow patches. I might add certain species of invertebrate animals also. It has long been known from Scotland and many other countries including the Arctic that a few moss species grow only on ground at long-lying snow patches that remain until late summer or autumn, and certain grass species on ground at snow patches of intermediate duration into midsummer. It has been more recently widely known that a few liverwort species grow along with these mosses, and less well known that a few lichen species also favour ground and rocks where there is long snow-lie. We also know from Scotland and elsewhere including the Alps and the Arctic that ground and rock under and beside very long-lying snow patches that usually or always survive until the next winter carry no plants of any kind, probably because the growing season is so ephemeral and often non-existent that plants cannot or do not become established. Scottish Natural Heritage (SNH) began the research described in the BBC report because their top biologists were worried that global warming would lead to far less long-lying snow-patches in the alpine zone of Scotland and in turn the decline or extinction of the rare mosses and liverworts, and also of certain species of alpine insects and birds. There is no doubt that the climate in the Scottish Highlands and the globe generally has warmed since the late 1980s as compared with the previous three decades, but whether this is due to natural variability or anthropogenic emissions of greenhouse gases remains unclear. There was an earlier pronounced warming in the 1930s and 1940s, without the more recent big increase of anthropogenic emissions,and it was followed by a marked cooling that gave us more snow, better skiing in Scotland, and the rise and success of the Scottish downhill ski centres. Since 2006 there has been an obvious cooling in the globe, including Scotland, and associated with it there has come a rise in the number of Scottish snow patches that survive until lasting winter snow, in 2007, 2008, and (deep breath, and, as Firefly would say, not counting the chickens too soon!) probably 2009. The Arctic sea-ice, which had shown a long-term decline in extent and thickness, reached a low point about 2006, but has increased in the last two years. Many climatologists now agree that there will be a cooling phase in the North Atlantic and nearby countries over the next decade. Some of them think this will be a temporary phase to be followed by a resurgence of anthropogenic warming, and fewer think that it will not be temporary and that the main danger now is prolonged cooling. Time will tell!

I personally have publicly criticised claims by SNH and others about doom and gloom facing Scottish land animals and plants because of anthropogenic warming. I did so because the claims were not based on rigorous scientific evidence on habitats, wildlife, climate or soils, and so were misleading to the public. When I privately challenged individuals who were making such claims public, their reaction was highly defensive, a sure sign to my mind that it had become akin to faith rather than rational logical thinking. A scientist worth his/her salt should be looking for evidence against his/her favoured hypotheses and so should welcome critical destructive comment, because evidence against is more reliable than evidence for, and because sooner or later another scientist may get an idea leading to a better story and a refutation of the favoured hypotheses!

In short, the rare mosses and the ptarmigan and the mountain hare are likely to be around for a long time yet, and likewise the Scottish snow patches in late summer and autumn! I predict there will be a thread Attention all walkers! 2019 snow-patch season, if WH and Alan and Firefly and the increasing band of keen voluntary snow-patch observers are still on the go and have not walked into buses!
Adam


WelshWizard


Posts: 215
Joined: Feb 2009
Last Visited: 13:20
3rd May 2015
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 12.01hrs on Fri 6 Nov 09
Thanks! Re science and hypothesis, a favourite Richard Feynman quote about physics, 'you are temporarily not wrong.'

firefly


Posts: 2149
Joined: May 2006
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 13.06hrs on Fri 6 Nov 09
Chionophile has kindly forwarded me an account he wrote, and was published in the Scottish Bird News journal in 2007. In it he is critical of fantastical stories published by journalists, who prophesize all sorts of happenings to flora and fauna due to 'global warming'.

I am no climatologist, but what is interesting is that from 1996 (when the annual paper on snow patches first appeared in the RMS's 'Weather' publication), Aonach Beag's snow (the lowest lying snow in Scotland to regularly make it through the year) survived only twice between 1996-2006 (2000 & 2002). Assuming it survives this year (almost guaranteed), that will make 3 years on the trot. Having looked at the survivals for the Cairngorms and NE Scotland for the years 1971-200, it is likely* that this is a very rare occurrence.

* - Only my guess, based upon the number of Cairngorm survivals measured against when Aonach Beag has been known to survive.

Attachments: Page1.pdf (179kB)  
firefly


Posts: 2149
Joined: May 2006
Re: Attention all walkers! 2009 snow-patch season
Date Posted: 13.08hrs on Fri 6 Nov 09
Pages 2-3

Attachments: Pages 2.pdf (181kB)   Pages 3.pdf (145kB)  
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