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jabuzzard


Posts: 878
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17th Jan 2021
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 22.10hrs on Tue 26 Mar 13
David Goldsmith Wrote:
This is some of the 21cm of new snow which the Club says fell on Cairngorm in the past 7 days (see above) ...


As denfinella has previously pointed out, posting a picture of a massive snow drift does not in any way invalidate that an average of 21cm of snow fell in the past seven days. Not only that it is self serving, deliberately disingenuous and adds nothing useful to the debate.




daveski


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28th Apr 2019
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 07.12hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
So if there was a more accurate snow depth measurement consistetnly taken from the same point published what benefit would it provide? Asking because the snow depth varies across the mountain - take Cairngorm - back to base cover in places at the top and 7m deep (cut over underpass) - both of these areas are high use areas. The cas gunbarrel must also be close to 7m deep if not more.

David Goldsmith


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6th Nov 2018
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 09.20hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
jabuzzard Wrote:
David Goldsmith Wrote:
This is some of the 21cm of new snow which the Club says fell on Cairngorm in the past 7 days (see above) ...


As denfinella has previously pointed out, posting a picture of a massive snow drift does not in any way invalidate that an average of 21cm of snow fell in the past seven days. Not only that it is self serving, deliberately disingenuous and adds nothing useful to the debate.


Clearly, we've just seen some of the greatest snow deposition on Cairngorm in the 52 years that it's been served by things that hang off cables (or choo-choos pulled by them).

Whether the snow fell from the sky, or was blown on to the slopes by a hurricane, is irrelevant. What matters, and what the SCGB (my club) purports to report/measure, is the average (typical) depth on the ground.

To say that 21cm of snow, on average, landed on the Lady/Cas/Ciste etc. in the past 7 days, is quite absurd. Yes, the photo shows a wall of snow about 3m high, and clearly 1m to 3m new snow is now being bulldozed by the bullies around the main pistes. Correct me if I'm wrong!

jabuzzard


Posts: 878
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17th Jan 2021
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 13.02hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
David Goldsmith Wrote:
To say that 21cm of snow, on average, landed on the Lady/Cas/Ciste etc. in the past 7 days, is quite absurd. Yes, the photo shows a wall of snow about 3m high, and clearly 1m to 3m new snow is now being bulldozed by the bullies around the main pistes. Correct me if I'm wrong!


The problem is that you are totally misreading what the snow fall figures mean. Standard meteorological terminology is for it to mean the depth before drifting. So yes an average depth of 21cm probably did fall over the Cairngorms in the last week.

Put another way you could have a really calm conditions and 30cm of snow could fall. It remains below freezing, then a 10 days later a gale comes along and moves the snow about. The depth on the pistes could then increase dramatically, but to claim that new snow had fallen would be an outright lie.

David Goldsmith


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6th Nov 2018
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 13.50hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
jabuzzard Wrote:
David Goldsmith Wrote:
To say that 21cm of snow, on average, landed on the Lady/Cas/Ciste etc. in the past 7 days, is quite absurd. Yes, the photo shows a wall of snow about 3m high, and clearly 1m to 3m new snow is now being bulldozed by the bullies around the main pistes. Correct me if I'm wrong!

The problem is that you are totally misreading what the snow fall figures mean. Standard meteorological terminology is for it to mean the depth before drifting. So yes an average depth of 21cm probably did fall over the Cairngorms in the last week.

Put another way you could have a really calm conditions and 30cm of snow could fall. It remains below freezing, then a 10 days later a gale comes along and moves the snow about. The depth on the pistes could then increase dramatically, but to claim that new snow had fallen would be an outright lie.


Well, explain today's report, then. The upper piste depth has increased (has there been any additional precipitation?) to 200cm from 160cm. And the "last 7 days" snowfall is now given as 43cm - i.e. stating that there's been another 22cm since Monday.



Are you suggesting that this info. comes from an authoritative source? I've asked the SCGB several times - over the past two years - to explain where this data comes from. No coherent information has been given.

My impression, in the absence of any credible information, is that these snow reports are just made up in the office.



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 13.53hrs Wed 27 Mar 13 by David Goldsmith.

Attachments: Cairngorm report 27.3.JPG (50kB)  
jabuzzard


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17th Jan 2021
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 14.18hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
I probably can explain it. The Monday figure was probably from before the Monday update for over the weekend. So once the Monday update came through the depth of snow fallen went up. Though there has also been continuing snow fall this week. I don't actively check the SCGB website for Scottish snow conditions because there are better places to get that information from not least Winterhighland.

In addition as I pointed out the snow depth on the piste can increase without any snow falling from a cloud through either drifting, snow making, a piste machine pushing snow about or a combination of any of the above.

denfinella


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30th Dec 2020
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 16.25hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
I think jabuzzard makes a fair point. David (please correct me if I'm wrong), essentially I think you're saying that the figures must be made up because the snow depth has increased by 18cm more than the "last 7 days" snow fall has.

That's perfectly possible without any figures being made up. Just a few reasons:

- the "last 7 days" fall covers, well, 7 days. So last Monday and Tuesday have now dropped off the end. If 18cm fell last Monday and Tuesday, that would explain the difference
- even if this isn't the case, as you have stated, Cairngorm have been dozing further snow around and onto the runs. That could well have increased the on-piste snow depth without new snow falling (jabuzzard also mentions this)
- drifting (also mentioned by jabuzzard)

There are probably lots of other reasons too, but those are just three. Overall, there are so many variables that it's almost impossible to

- make the figures perfectly accurate
- prove that the figures are made up.

Personally, I think the figures are too accurate to be made up in the office, especially by people who (I agree) generally seem to be more concerned about ski resorts abroad.

It's a shame that the SCGB haven't replied to your communications in a way that you have liked. But I do wonder whether that is, in part, down to the tone of how you are putting your points across (or maybe because you're "only" a member rather than an actual ski centre)? Glencoe have apparently had some success in improving the accuracy of the SCGB reports, so the SCGB must have listened to them.

I don't want this to start being thread for trading insults between two sides. I do think there's an issue here about SCGB Scottish snow reporting, but I just don't think it's currently being tackled in the right way, and I don't think the root of the problems is making up figures.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 16.28hrs Wed 27 Mar 13 by denfinella.

David Goldsmith


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6th Nov 2018
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 17.39hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
In view of this discussion, I asked the Cairngorm operations team, via Facebook: "Can you guys put a rough estimate on how much new snow landed on the mid-upper slopes of Cairngorm in the past 7 days - in the main piste gullies? Just to settle a debate!" This is their response:

"Probably 4 m Cas gun barrel , 2-3m white lady, 2-3m ptarmigan bowl, 12-15m Ciste gully, top of Sheiling tow area 2 m, Burnside 2m, Fiaciall piste 2 m"

That's new snow, remember.

Source: [www.facebook.com]




Edited 1 times. Last edit at 17.41hrs Wed 27 Mar 13 by David Goldsmith.

geeo


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7th Feb 2019
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 17.46hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
you should know that DG has a severe long standing problem with the SCGB and seems to have a vendetta against them, much of that is evidenced from reading snowheads over the last few years and should be taken into consideration when reading anything he posts about them.

Bomp


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15th Jan 2021
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 17.51hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
Amazing just how localized some of those showers are...








David Goldsmith


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6th Nov 2018
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 17.56hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
geeo Wrote:
DG has a severe long standing problem with the SCGB and seems to have a vendetta against them ...


I'm certainly not in a vendetta. Remember that the Club comprises fellow members who also pay subscriptions. I'm in no dispute with these lovely people!
I do have very strong feelings about those who publish false information as a substitute for factual truth ... be it membership data, snow reports, commercial information (circulation stats, internet users etc.), ski injury data etc. etc.
As self-declared "spokesbody of British skiers" I do expect my club to uphold the highest standards, to operate transparently and welcome scrutiny etc.
If you feel that's a vendetta ... well, that's your freedom of expression!

denfinella


Posts: 104
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30th Dec 2020
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 18.37hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
David, in a "debate", all parties are supposed to acknowlege and respond to other parties' comments. I've tried to address your comments as best I can, but all I hear back is more along the same line of "there's lots of snow in the gullies, therefore there's lots of snow on average across the ski area".

I've got nothing more to add as I think my previous comments still apply.

By the way, the debate is not "settled", nor does it need to be. It just sounds like you're trying to "win" an argument rather than contribute to a discussion.

David Goldsmith


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6th Nov 2018
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 18.43hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
denfinella, I genuinely apologise. I can't add anything else, since I'm not a meteorologist or snow measurer - I'm simply airing my concerns, having studied what appear to be irreconcilable trends in data from the SCGB and evasiveness in explaining how the data is collected.

I handed it over to the Cairngorms ops team this morning because they are the ones on the hill, and in the most expert position to know how much new and existing snow is there - since they are assessing it and shifting it around.

If the ops team say that a minimum of 2m of new snow (rather than 21cm/43cm) has landed (which is about what I'd guessed, looking at the photos) then that surely closes the discussion?

Let's celebrate these almost unprecedented snow depths and hope they provide enough optimism for a new lift or two to be built!

denfinella


Posts: 104
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30th Dec 2020
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 18.57hrs on Wed 27 Mar 13
Fair enough, apology accepted. There's clearly a big difference between the SCGB's and the ski centre's records of new snow, and huge spectrum of other opinions from Winterhighland members and other parties. All these people have varying levels of expertise but also varying levels of bias.

Whatever's correct, the conditions are fantastic, there's plenty of snow to ensure a good end to the season, and let's go out and play on it instead of spending the time in front of a computer screen smiling smiley

jabuzzard


Posts: 878
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17th Jan 2021
Re: An open letter to the new CEO of the Ski Club of GB
Date Posted: 10.02hrs on Thu 28 Mar 13
David Goldsmith Wrote:

I handed it over to the Cairngorms ops team this morning because they are the ones on the hill, and in the most expert position to know how much new and existing snow is there - since they are assessing it and shifting it around.

If the ops team say that a minimum of 2m of new snow (rather than 21cm/43cm) has landed (which is about what I'd guessed, looking at the photos) then that surely closes the discussion?


No it most certainly does not close the discussion because this 2m of new snow is concentrated in the gullies and runs. Even the web cams show that there are plenty of scoured areas with little snow. The question that you asked of the Cairngorm ops team is entirely leading "Can you guys put a rough estimate on how much new snow landed on the mid-upper slopes of Cairngorm in the past 7 days - in the main piste gullies?" You did not ask the correct question, which would be can you estimate how much snow fell before drifting which is what the SCGB figures estimate.

As I said previously the snow fall figures relate to the amount of even cover prior to any drifting. This is the standard meteorological terminology and five minutes with Google will confirm that. That you don't appear to be willing to take this on board is almost certainly down to the pig headiness that your personal vendetta against the SCGB management has induced.


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