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David Goldsmith


Posts: 1283
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6th Nov 2018
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 10.10hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
The STV website has this TV report which was filed from the scene, partly as the rescue/recovery was taking place:

[news.stv.tv]

alan


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27th Mar 2024
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Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 10.23hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
it was a response to another post that was cut, therefore the whole sequence of posts has been changed way in such a way as to completely change the original points I made - I presume because of some of the ridiculous comments and allegations made by another poster. Alan can confirm this (or otherwise)


The comment about the Lecht going down which you have since clarified as not meaning what numerous posters assumed caused a bit of a "****storm" late yesterday evening! When posts started getting abusive, threatening and derogatory they had to be removed. As this kicked off over the comment about "ambulance chasers" some posts back to and including that one have been removed, to try and keep some semblance of flow in the thread.



alan


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Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 10.38hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13

What safeguards do you have to prevent this?
Where is your signage?
Is it clear?
Are there enough signs?
What warnings to did you give to customers on the day?
.....

Even one failure on any of the above could be picked apart, and even if insignificant, a judge would probably declare the Lecht liable. They always side with the innocent injured parties, especially if the injuries are fairly serious and especially in Scotland.


Have a look at the case brought against Nevis Range by someone who fell off Lemming Ridge that was unsuccessful; which was brought on similar points. Obviously this is going off at a tangent because that did not involve a lift and as yet there is no understanding of what sequence of events lead to the haul rope dropping from the tower. A key point of the ruling was that every risk and issue that might arise could not reasonably be signed or warned about in a mountain environment.



Nelbert


Posts: 281
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23rd Aug 2015
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 10.49hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
alan Wrote:
it was a response to another post that was cut, therefore the whole sequence of posts has been changed way in such a way as to completely change the original points I made - I presume because of some of the ridiculous comments and allegations made by another poster. Alan can confirm this (or otherwise)

The comment about the Lecht going down which you have since clarified as not meaning what numerous posters assumed caused a bit of a "****storm" late yesterday evening! When posts started getting abusive, threatening and derogatory they had to be removed. As this kicked off over the comment about "ambulance chasers" some posts back to and including that one have been removed, to try and keep some semblance of flow in the thread.



Thanks for the clarification. I was out and about last night and using my mobile. I didn't see some of the posts and got confused when some of my others disappeared.

I am only offering a legal/insurance perspective on this, as it is my area of expertise. As others do when topics cover their areas of expertise. I clarify again don't wish any ill will on the Lecht. This is why the ski areas pay for public insurance, and this is why public liability insurance exists. The natural progression when these events occur are understood by few, as evidenced by the reaction of some on here.

While there are broken bones no-one was killed and when you look at the height of some of the uplift, and the two uplift accidents that have occurred in Scotland in a relatively short period of time, we are extremely lucky that this is the case. We shouldn't lose sight of this.

jabuzzard


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16th Apr 2021
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 12.47hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
Nelbert Wrote:
You make a reasonable point in a sense, but in the real world completely unworkable. In the scenario you describe The Lecht's insurer would have to spend a lot of money going after the household insurer of the parent whose child was responsible. They wouldn't have the money to pay, or the appropriate cover on their household insurance policy. It would be an expensive and pointless exercise. The first point of call for compensation is always going to be the insurer that provides the Lecht's public liability cover - and can easily pay the compensation awarded. Are the courts going to sanction potentially taking the house off the parent of one of the kids injured to pay for his son/daughter's damages? Ensue an even more expensive mess with terrible publicity.


My household contents insurance has public liability cover of £5 million. As far as I can tell it is pretty much standard these days to have a seven figure public liability included in your cover. If it would not cover this sort of thing what is it for?

We do seem to live in an age where accepting personal responsibility for our actions has gone out the window.

KW


Posts: 211
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22nd Jan 2018
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 13.16hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
I'm no insurance assessor,lawyer,lift engineer or have any expertise relating tothis incident.

However, I spent 25 years in a job which involved evidence gathering, presenting it to the courts and being questioned on it once that was accomplished. Get the drift?

It included working in a department which was dedicated to dealing with with things like sudden deaths, fatal accidents and included liaising with specialist bodies to do so.

The only thing that can be said with confidence (derived from that experience) is evidence will be gathered and reports will be submitted.

Another thing which is derived from that experience is that when you compare what appears in the media with the facts coming in there's often a mismatch.

It will be interesting to see when the last HSE inspection took place (I assume that happens) and when/if the chair begins to run again.

Anyhoo, a big up and repetiton of any previous praise for the lifties who seem to have done a textbook job of getting folk off without further incident.





David Goldsmith


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6th Nov 2018
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 13.30hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
To date, these two photos seem to be the only ones which hold any clues as to what happened:






Edited 1 times. Last edit at 13.32hrs Thu 14 Feb 13 by David Goldsmith.

Attachments: Lecht chairlift - 1.jpg (38kB)   Lecht chairlift - 2.jpg (72kB)  
Nelbert


Posts: 281
Joined: Oct 2009
Last Visited: 16:26
23rd Aug 2015
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 13.32hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
alan Wrote:

What safeguards do you have to prevent this?
Where is your signage?
Is it clear?
Are there enough signs?
What warnings to did you give to customers on the day?
.....

Even one failure on any of the above could be picked apart, and even if insignificant, a judge would probably declare the Lecht liable. They always side with the innocent injured parties, especially if the injuries are fairly serious and especially in Scotland.

Have a look at the case brought against Nevis Range by someone who fell off Lemming Ridge that was unsuccessful; which was brought on similar points. Obviously this is going off at a tangent because that did not involve a lift and as yet there is no understanding of what sequence of events lead to the haul rope dropping from the tower. A key point of the ruling was that every risk and issue that might arise could not reasonably be signed or warned about in a mountain environment.



I will have a look at the case when I get a minute. However this is comparing apples to oranges, and there really is no similarity. We are talking her about an (alleged) failure of machinery, owned, operated and maintained by a lift company, against someone that was injured during the use of the natural terrain on the mountain.

His case is perhaps similar to my accident at cairngorm, in that it involved terrain. Despite serious injuries (I was told I would probably be walking with a stick at one stage) I did not consider a claim simply because I knew I never had one. It wasn't specifically my fault - but it wasn't Cairngorm's either. It was part of the risk of snowsports. I say again that the risk that machinery will fail and your chairlift will plummet you to the ground is not, and should not, be considered as part of the risk you accept when going up a mountain. It would simply not be accepted as a legal argument

However that boy may have suffered catastrophic injuries, and in that case it is worth (for them) a lawyer bringing a claim even if there is only a small chance of the lift operator being held responsible. Even if he was held 80% at fault and Nevis 20%, he could still receive a fair sum of money, and of course the lawyers would still get paid.




Nelbert


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23rd Aug 2015
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 13.33hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
jabuzzard Wrote:

My household contents insurance has public liability cover of £5 million. As far as I can tell it is pretty much standard these days to have a seven figure public liability included in your cover. If it would not cover this sort of thing what is it for?

We do seem to live in an age where accepting personal responsibility for our actions has gone out the window.


I agree!

The cover for household liability insurance varies wildly from company to company and policy to policy, and I have been out of this area for years, however it is generally envisaged (and the sums are so high) to cover the risk of someone suffering a catastrophic injury in your home as a result of your negligence - for example tripping on a loose floorboard and falling down the stairs and becoming paraplegic. Another example would be if you lived in the top floor of a block of flats, started running a bath, forgot and went out. The damage caused by the time the water was turned off could be hundreds of thousands of pounds.

Damage caused outside your home - say by you as a cyclist - either by hitting pedestrians or causing motor accidents - is something that is usually covered. I can't say for certain but if you negligently caused an accident on a slope that caused another skier to suffer a bad injury, I reckon someone could bring a claim against you this way. So theoretically it could be possible to chase the household insurers of someone if it could be proven that their negligence caused the derailment of a chair. However these policies are riddled with clauses and loopholes. There would need to be overwhelming evidence before it would even be worth considering.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 13.35hrs Thu 14 Feb 13 by Nelbert.

telemarker


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12th Apr 2021
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 13.41hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
the top of the pylon assmembly looks pretty twisted,

David Goldsmith


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Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 13.49hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
Looking at those photos, the first one seems to confirm the eye-witness evidence of chairs 'bunching' for some reason.

From the uneven spacing of the chairs, and the distance that the first 'bunched' one travelled beyond the problem tower, I guess the engineers will be able to make a calculation as to how long it took for the lift to stop. But what did the first chair collide with, and why?

It appears - from the chairs remaining suspended slightly above the snow surface - that a much worse result was averted. I guess the skiers' feet impacted with the snow, and/or their legs were hit by their chairs impacting with the chair in front, but if the cable had fully crashed this could have been catastrophic.

Presumably, once everyone was off the lift, there was some rise of the chairs above the snow.

alan


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Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 14.17hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
Presumably, once everyone was off the lift, there was some rise of the chairs above the snow.


That depends in the way the passengers were spaced out on the lift, the opposite could also be true as other parts of the line became lighter.

Reports on the radio and in the printed press suggest the lift stopped and was bouncing prior to this happening. As mentioned above there are several reports that various lifts stopped just prior the derailment. Though it's not clear what sort of timescale 'just' is, seconds, a minute, couple of minutes?

An emergency stop of a chairlift involves dropping a very powerful hydraulic bullwheel e-brake that stops the lift very quickly, this can cause significant bouncing as the dynamic forces are dissipated through the lift line. The reason for the need for such a sudden e-stop is to prevent any risk of an uncontrolled rollback. Though unlikely, it is possible for the forces involved to cause a de-ropement.

Chairifts of fairly modern construction are designed that the haul rope and chair grips can run through the cable catchers - this is two fold, a backup in the event that tower circuits don't stop the lift on derailment and secondly as a means to run the line clear without having to resort to rope evacuation before the lift line is light enough to 're-rail'.

The number of carriers involved would suggest a timescale of 30s-60s between the first chairs stacking and the lift stopping, depending on the speed of the lift at the time. In Europe 6s is regarded as the minimum carrier spacing practical for double lifts up, in the US the ANSI regulations stipulate a minimum carrier interval for double or triple lifts of 6.5s - that would be at full operating speed, obviously if the lift was running slower the time interval would increase accordingly.

Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 14.28hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
David Goldsmith Wrote:

It appears - from the chairs remaining suspended slightly above the snow surface - that a much worse result was averted. I guess the skiers' feet impacted with the snow, and/or their legs were hit by their chairs impacting with the chair in front, but if the cable had fully crashed this could have been catastrophic.

Presumably, once everyone was off the lift, there was some rise of the chairs above the snow.


Anything that disturbs the normal run of a ropeway can have a significant rise and fall effect on the rope. The fact that the chairs are currently off the ground when the whole system is back in a stable condition is no indicator of what happened on a second by second basis during the incident. Yes the chairs would have dropped, and may have hit the ground, but as the dynamic effect of the subsequent emergency stop is dissappated along the rope, they could have bounced back up, and this could have repeated several times. In the above photo, there appears to be little or no damage to the chairs and footrests themseleves, which hopefully suggests a fairly light contact with the ground. (Alan seems to have beaten me to it with some of that !).

remote_patrol


Posts: 1013
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20th Apr 2021
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 14.43hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
Nelbert Wrote:
You would only have a realistic prospect of going after them if the lift was new and it was a manufacturing fault, not one that has spun successfully for many years.


not necessarily, the whistler quicksilver incident seemed to be down to manufacturer liability (faulty grip design & dodgy e-brake) after years of service, albeit not exactly trouble free service.

i think from david's second photo above we can guess that any tower mounted saftey system was in no condition to prevent anything immediately prior to the rope coming off. also looks like there's a chair missing, the spacings in the first photo seem to suggest 5 chairs were involved, but i can only see 4 in the two bunches?

having never been to the lecht, is this fixed or detachable?

David Goldsmith


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6th Nov 2018
Re: Chairlift derails
Date Posted: 14.50hrs on Thu 14 Feb 13
remote_patrol, it's a fixed-grip lift. The database of Lift-World.info lists it as a secondhand lift, installed in the year 2000:

[www.lift-world.info]



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 14.52hrs Thu 14 Feb 13 by David Goldsmith.

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