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jabuzzard


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Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 08.17hrs on Thu 16 May 13

Can't say that I've seen many 3600 p/h uplift fixed grips, but there are numerous 6 and 8 seater detachables.


Just because there are not any six and eight seater fixed grips does not mean they are not possible. Only a fool would suggest that.


And lots of detailed theoretical discussion there, but can you reference an actual worked example ?


If you want to consider it theoretical then do so, but the physics are real undeniable and unchangeable. I good easily expand it with numbers, but comming up with accurate numbers for drag coefficients would be hard. However anyone who believes that it does not take significantly more energy to run a quad detachable than a quad fixed grip is delusional.
Hipennine


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 10.23hrs on Thu 16 May 13
jabuzzard Wrote:

Can't say that I've seen many 3600 p/h uplift fixed grips, but there are numerous 6 and 8 seater detachables.


Just because there are not any six and eight seater fixed grips does not mean they are not possible. Only a fool would suggest that.


And lots of detailed theoretical discussion there, but can you reference an actual worked example ?

If you want to consider it theoretical then do so, but the physics are real undeniable and unchangeable. I good easily expand it with numbers, but comming up with accurate numbers for drag coefficients would be hard. However anyone who believes that it does not take significantly more energy to run a quad detachable than a quad fixed grip is delusional.


I didn't say there weren't any 6 or 8 seat fixed grips, I said I hadn't seen any with an uplift capacity of 3600p/h (well none actually). I suppose in theory you could put enough fixed grips on a line, and run it slowly enough to achieve that capacity, but I wonder why nobody seems to have ordered one ?

I also asked if you could provide a reference to an actual real world comparative exercise on the cost power input to a fixed vs detachable (you know, where a real operator has done the maths before selecting a aperticular option).

As to being a delusional fool, I understand that insult is the last riposte of somebody losing an argument. Personally, i won't stoop to insults in a civilised discussion.
jabuzzard


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 12.00hrs on Thu 16 May 13
Hipennine Wrote:
I didn't say there weren't any 6 or 8 seat fixed grips, I said I hadn't seen any with an uplift capacity of 3600p/h (well none actually). I suppose in theory you could put enough fixed grips on a line, and run it slowly enough to achieve that capacity, but I wonder why nobody seems to have ordered one ?


Uplift capacity of a chairlift in persons per hour is governed by number of seats on the chairs and loading interval. Loading interval is basically independent of whether the lift is detachable or fixed grip. I will note that there is at least one detachable chair with dual loading stations, but this is highly unusual. How fast the journey is only comes into play at the end of the day and adds a insignificant number of extra people to the total daily capacity.

My guess as to why there are no fixed grip six and eight seater chairs is that the resorts that can justify these sorts of lifts also have sufficient numbers of people using them that they can also justify the additional power costs.

The issue is that in a much more economically marginal snowsports place like Scotland the additional expense would likely be ruinous. So while I would love to see high speed chairs all over in Scotland even if I where to win £100 million on the Euro Lottery and was throwing cash at the Scottish ski centres I am sufficiently realistic that there would be no money for detachable chairs. Though my hybrid concept would likely get an outing :-)


I also asked if you could provide a reference to an actual real world comparative exercise on the cost power input to a fixed vs detachable (you know, where a real operator has done the maths before selecting a aperticular option).


I can't but that is a total red herring. The detachable has to use more power, it simple physics. If you believe otherwise challenge my physics.


As to being a delusional fool, I understand that insult is the last riposte of somebody losing an argument. Personally, i won't stoop to insults in a civilised discussion.


There is no room for discussion, it's like talking to a conspiracy theorist or pseudo science proponent. If you don't believe that high speed detachable require more power then you don't believe in basic well proven physics and engineering. One cannot have a rational discussion with someone who does not believe in well proven physics and engineering. In my book people who don't believe in well proven physics and engineering are delusional fools at the very best.
Gorminator


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 12.26hrs on Thu 16 May 13
Perhaps HIPENNIE is destined for a job in Government then. It is after all an organisation populated by "delusional fools" who have also lost touch with reality !
PeterS


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 12.31hrs on Thu 16 May 13
Do the current queues justify the probable increase in ticket price ?

All those displaced second hand Tbars may be avaiable for an attractive price however and probably at a favourable line speed to a fixed grip chair ?
David Goldsmith


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 13.02hrs on Thu 16 May 13
3600 skiers per hour is one per second.

Imagine skiers coming down a run at one per second (even if they're split between 2 or 3 pistes and passing you at one per 2-3 seconds) and you realise why so many ski areas now make you feel like an ant in an ant run.
Skiing is about having some space - preferably masses of it - so you can choose a line, get up a bit of speed and feel a sense of escape from the urban drudge.
JanA


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 13.54hrs on Thu 16 May 13
Anyone who thinks a 6-8 fixed chair could possibly work must be a skier winking smiley
The faster dismount on a fixed chair will produce a pile-up of 6-8 novice/intermediate boarders at frequent intervals. The detachable is OK in this situation because with the slower dismount, most boarders will not need to slow themselves down and can run straight off the dismount ramp without smacking into anyone.
MPW1


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 14.43hrs on Thu 16 May 13
All this talk of 6/8 seater detachables (I know the word "fantasy" is in the thread title)!

More realistic, and probably quite adequate for Cairngorm to acquire a serviceable, second-hand, fixed grip 2, 3 or 4 seater to replace the existing WW chair. They're being ripped out all over Europe at the moment, so they must be available. This alone would transform the place. By all accounts I read on this site, probably could still be running to allow the Ciste Gully to be accessed with uplift today, 16th May! Other than on glaciers, is there anywhere else in Europe even theoretically able to offer that much vertical drop at this time of the year, I wonder?

I know it's only a tiddler of a lift, but If GS can do it with the Baddoch...? Actually, I had my first experience of the Baddoch at the end of March this year and "transformational" would be the word I would use there too, for the Cairnwell side of the road. In its absence, with the crowds that turned up that particular Saturday things would have been much worse queue-wise than they actually were.

Michael
alan


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Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 15.28hrs on Thu 16 May 13
Firstly please drop the insults... It was intended to be a fairly light hearted thread!

There are fixed grip 6 person chairlifts, though they are definitely a niche; suitable for short lifts requiring a high throughput, because as carrier size increases various lift codes around the world require slower loading speeds and for fixed grip lifts that means slower line speeds.

One such fixed grip six pack in the pipeline is a replacement for the two short Yan tripples at Heavenyly, Patsy and Groove that connect the base of the Powderbowl area with the top of the Tram and Gunbarrel Express (longer than the Baddoch but not by much).

The Cableways Directive and requirement to bring relocated / second hand lifts up to compliance means that unless you already have the lift, there isn't much in it over getting a new a fixed grip lift. Nothing would be achieved getting an alternative second hand double or tripple in to replace the Ciste Chairlifts for example.
alan


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Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 15.32hrs on Thu 16 May 13
On surface lifts vs chairlifts, the clear advantage of chairlifts over surface lifts is you don't need snow below the lift line and you don't need to expand the time and cost maintaining an uptrack. The advantage of a surface lift is the potential to load and unload at intermediate points on the line as required.

Thus I'd be of the view that a new lift on the White Lady T-bar line has to be a chairlift (this would also allow access to the Traverse etc for all ability levels via the new White Lady lift). On the other hand replacing the Coire Cas T-bar would be a disaster (though re-gearing it to get the linespeed back to something more respectable would be nice)!
MPW1


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 15.41hrs on Thu 16 May 13
Yes, was just reading about the Cableways Directive. What a shame! All those old lifts that will now just go for scrap, I suppose.

Doesn't seem to be an issue in the US though. The "Boneyard" site people here have previously referenced is fascinating reading for sad folks like me. I wonder if things would change if we exit the EU? I suspect not.

I assume Glenshee escaped the requirements because they had it sitting on site for some time? Mind you, I was pretty impressed by the quite smart looking installation - gates, towers hut etc, considering it had been sitting on the ground in bits for so long. Maybe they did have to "bring it up to standard"?

Michael
alan


Posts: 10750
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 23:28
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Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 16.13hrs on Thu 16 May 13
I assume Glenshee escaped the requirements because they had it sitting on site for some time?


No and further because the UK government hadn't put in place any system for ensuring compliance, their policy was don't approve any new cableways - this was the principle reason the Baddoch Chair didn't open for the 2011 season, instead opening part way into the 2012 season. As usual the UK gold plated the directive, requiring to be signed off by the relevant secretary of state at planning, pre construction and pre opening stages! eye rolling smiley
oldagedpredator


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 17.34hrs on Thu 16 May 13
I take it if the london gondola hadn't gone in Baddoch would still be in the car park because the need wouldn't have been grasped. UK over eggs the EU pudding shock.
JanA


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 18.51hrs on Thu 16 May 13
“Firstly please drop the insults... It was intended to be a fairly light hearted thread!”

Heck, if that was aimed at me it was a misinterpretation! I am an intermediate snowboarder myself and, I assure you, I would be one of those IN the pile!
Skiers, understandably, sometimes forget that on narrow pistes or download ramps, a snowboarder has no snowplough facility. With 2-4 bodies on a chairlift there is usually just enough room to edge a bit if necessary on the download ramp without taking someone else out. With a line of 6-8 bodies, a snowboarder is committed to taking a straight line. That is fine for advanced boarders but not ideal for the cautious.
It wasn’t intended to be an insult to snowboarders, of course, just purely factual. Has anyone come up with another reason as to why there are no fixed 6-8 chairs ...I suggest that this is the reason.

benim83n


Guest
Re: The Fantasy Lift Shopping List...
Date Posted: 22.24hrs on Wed 22 May 13
Ok well you said fantasies...
And i dream BIG!

I want a Gondola From Aviemore train station into the ptarmigan. Two high speed heated 6 man chairs (one in the ciste and one in the cas). Then a highspeed six express on every hill between the lecht, glenshee, and cairngorm creating one super massive resort and steel val thorens little record...

I think by 2015 we could see this as a reality.
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