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moffatross


Posts: 1525
Joined: Mar 2006
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 15.20hrs on Mon 19 May 14
cmorrison Wrote:
Doug_Bryce Wrote:
depending on just a chairlift across plateau at Glencoe would be a disaster.



...You could always walk across the plateau!


But then you might get mud on your goretex pants. ;-)
Doug_Bryce


Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 15.54hrs on Mon 19 May 14
^ some of the old timers reckon glencoe has been going downhill ever since they built the toilet block & plateau poma. just encourages the punters winking smiley
jabuzzard


Posts: 885
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 11:02
16th Apr 2021
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 16.14hrs on Mon 19 May 14
Andy Wrote:

when wind blows from the west the top of the access chair / plateau can be the windiest place on the mountain whilst the main ski runs are sheltered by bulk of the hill. depending on just a chairlift across plateau at Glencoe would be a disaster.



Yet the access chair can still run...

The question is how often is the wind in just the right direction and of sufficient strength that a suitably engineered plateau chair could not run but the access chair could?

My guess and I admit it is a guess is that is a pretty narrow range of wind speeds and directions. Further when these conditions do occur there will be very few punters on the mountain anyway. Most people are not willing to ski/board in such weather conditions.

From a strictly business point of view the revenue from that limited number of skiers on these probably infrequent days has to cover the entire cost of maintaining the plateau poma.

I would be surprised if it would be financially viable to keep both a plateau chair and poma going. You would obviously have to run the numbers, but I doubt you could make a business case for it.




daveski


Posts: 1506
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28th Apr 2019
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Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 06.16hrs on Tue 20 May 14
Has anyone thought about using a train as an alternative to address operating in the higher wind speeds? - though would need to make sure the business model and funding was well thought out - and of course a proper study and acceptance of any findings when planning its route - especially siting of the tunnel mouth - just in case they get a wee bit of snow and it got blocked. Plus make sure the remainder of the route is not prone to drifting - that might cause problems. Maybe also think about a proper base statation with all facitlites in one roof, well planned to avoid fast through put of customers to minimise queuing. While they are at it could also build extra catering facilities and possibly think about an alternative access to the mountain, maybe consider lookig at any run down facilities like an alternative car park, ticketing, catering etc that limnks straigth onto a say a chairlift with a mid mountian stop linking onto a high speed poma accessing some decent black runs.


alan


Posts: 10768
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27th Mar 2024
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Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 08.52hrs on Tue 20 May 14
Modern chairlifts have a higher wind tolerance and certain sizes of carriers are more wind stable due to relationship between surface area and mass. A six seat detach being the optimum in that regard.

If a mountain put in a sixpack and a button from Doppelmayr, everything else being equal the chair would have the higher recommended wind operating speed. However everything isn't equal - lift profile and placement play a significant roll. That's why the Access Chair at Glencoe is often able to run when the gondola at Nevis can't.

A double chair across the plateau would not have as high a wind tolerance due to the uniform gradient profile. The other factor is that running a surface lift in very high winds resulting in a derailment means a delay while the rope is put back on and everyone can get off the lift.

If a chair de-ropes and you can't run it to clear the line, then you are in an evacuation situation as a loaded line is to heavy to attempt to re-rope.

Generally Jabuzzard is right about numbers dropping with higher winds - this is explicitly confirmed in documentation by Bob Clyde at CairnGorm and why days lost to wind for a new White Lady Chair would not be a big issue as on such days the Funicular is more likely to be able to cope with demand.

At Glencoe the lifts are mostly fairly sheltered to the prevailing wind, but the Plateua is often the most exposed location away from the summit ridge. The big factor that makes people carry on up the A82 to Nevis on any particular day is heavy rain on Rannoch Moor when it's snowing at 2000ft - the gondola gets you into the snow zone dry!

The other factor to the wind vs demand equation is that on marginal days demand at Glencoe can hold up because of displacement from elsewhere. Glencoe doesn't have the high level road issues that the East has and the Access Chair is less vulnerable to a variety of wind directions than the Nevis Gondola.
Doug_Bryce


Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 11.44hrs on Tue 20 May 14
IMHO the best new lift at Glencoe would be a replacement cliffhanger chair.
On busy days it always has the longest queue on the mountain ?

Ideally a 2 stage modern chairlift that runs from top of access -> plateau café -> existing cliffhanger line. This is the most sheltered line and would provide the most flexibility : plus you would still have the poma / wall t-bar as back up for the windy days.

It would also sadly cost mega bucks.... So we are into fantasy lift ideas winking smiley

That's why the Access Chair at Glencoe is often able to run when the gondola at Nevis can't.


Aye : If a sparrow farts the aonach mor gondola is often closed grinning smiley
They must have lost 40-50% of their weekend days this winter ?



Edited 3 times. Last edit at 11.48hrs Tue 20 May 14 by Doug_Bryce.
jabuzzard


Posts: 885
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 11:02
16th Apr 2021
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 12.06hrs on Tue 20 May 14
Doug_Bryce Wrote:
IMHO the best new lift at Glencoe would be a replacement cliffhanger chair.
On busy days it always has the longest queue on the mountain ?

Ideally a 2 stage modern chairlift that runs from top of access -> plateau café -> existing cliffhanger line. This is the most sheltered line and would provide the most flexibility : plus you would still have the poma / wall t-bar as back up for the windy days.


Nah, I would run a single chair along the cliffhanger line, and then up the main basin, with an optional loading point at top of cliffhanger/bottom of main basin. Quad or six man hybrid is what I would go for. That is detachable chairs but only used for taking off at the end of the day and adjusting spacing for wind speed, they don't exist but are my concept to get some of the advantages of a detachable without the higher running cost.

Of course if you want ultimate wind tolerance an underground funicular is the way to go.
PeterS


Posts: 980
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Last Visited: 12:21
13th Mar 2021
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Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 21.19hrs on Tue 20 May 14
Back in the real world.....it looks as though 2nd hand chairs do come up and the plateau should be relatively straightforward for construction.

I can't find the price of second hand pomas, but assuming they are cheaper new than Tbars they should also be cheaper second hand. I know there are dealers in the Alps so hopefully they will find something suitable in the next year or two.

Pomas have worked well in Scotland so no reason to think they are not fit for purpose, with adaptation. They have a faster line speed than Tbars and seem to be preferred by Boarders. The only real disadvantage is that they can't be loaded other than at the bottom.






Edited 1 times. Last edit at 21.22hrs Tue 20 May 14 by PeterS.
muzza


Posts: 57
Joined: Mar 2014
Last Visited: 09:31
12th Sep 2020
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 12.07hrs on Wed 21 May 14
Would it be feasible for Glencoe to extend the Cliffy by one pylon to the far side of the track which runs between it and the Main Basin T-bar? At present everyone leaving the cliffy has to head uphill, quite significantly so if the Wall T-bar is not running and you want to access the upper mountain.

Extending the Cliffy by one pylon would allow all users to head downhill from the top station, either towards the plateau or the Main Basin T-bar. It would also allow skiers and boarders to have a break from the T-bars which can get quite tiring if used all day.

The other solution is a cliffy replacement which runs from the top of the access chair to the bottom of the Main Basin T-bar, with an mid station at the bottom of the canyon.
alan


Posts: 10768
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27th Mar 2024
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Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 20.54hrs on Wed 21 May 14
Would it be feasible for Glencoe to extend the Cliffy by one pylon to the far side of the track which runs between it and the Main Basin T-bar? At present everyone leaving the cliffy has to head uphill, quite significantly so if the Wall T-bar is not running and you want to access the upper mountain.


The Cliffhanger was intentionally designed this way so that it primarily served the easier mid mountain runs to skiers right of the lift, while encouraging better skiers to use the Wall T-bar for access to the upper tows. Extending the Cliffhanger though technically feasible (and though it would definitely be good late in the season and would allow Glencoe to operate without the Wall T-bar on quieter days) would likely just further overwhelm it's capacity at busy times.

At present not running the Wall T-bar when it can run puts a dent in numbers due to the lack of ski off / ski on connection between the Cliffhanger and Main Basin T-bar.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 20.55hrs Wed 21 May 14 by alan.
jabuzzard


Posts: 885
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 11:02
16th Apr 2021
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 10.36hrs on Thu 22 May 14
alan Wrote:

The Cliffhanger was intentionally designed this way so that it primarily served the easier mid mountain runs to skiers right of the lift, while encouraging better skiers to use the Wall T-bar for access to the upper tows.


The issue with that is in my mind is that the "piste" that joins it to those runs can often be narrow, a bit steep and therefore off putting to those not so confident. At times the notion that it is a green run is a complete joke.


PeterS


Posts: 980
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13th Mar 2021
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Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 12.34hrs on Thu 22 May 14
A fairly powerful second hand detachable chair is now surplus at Argentierre, though would need complete refurbishment and will probably mean a heap of trouble for someone !

Looks as though simpler chairlifts will become available there over the enxt couple of years. Marmottons is a particular simple 2 person design with lowish pylons.

[www.remontees-mecaniques.net]

MPW1


Posts: 54
Joined: Nov 2009
Last Visited: 19:36
1st Nov 2018
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 11.55hrs on Fri 23 May 14
I skied Chamonix this year (March) and the quite long(detachable quad from memory) Joran lift is one of the 2 main access entries to the Grands Montets area. It didn't seem that old or in poor condition to me and it ran for the duration of our stay there without any perceivable breakdown issues. In fact it was my preferred route up the mountain, the other being a telepherique with long waits at peak times.

The other, much shorter Roujon lift (fixed grip, from memory) being replaced seemed much older, basic and battered - maybe more in keeping with the rest of the home-grown infrastructure! It also ran reliably all the time I was in the Grands Montets area though.

Given the scale of infrastructure replacements throughout the Alps there must be a huge volume of redundant equipment being taken down. I suspect most of it will go for scrap though. No idea what the costs would be for refurbishment, transit, planning and re-erection, but I don't suppose it would be cheap! After all, the economics of keeping such elderly equipment maintained and running must enter into the discussion for cost/benefit of its replacement in the first place.

I think the very short Baddoch chair most recently erected at Glenshee had been acquired quite a long time ago and had lain in bits in their car park for a number of years before they could afford the commissioning costs (I might be wrong on that though). I wonder if the costs of erecting something with many more towers and chairs to be attached will ever be economically viable. Let's hope I'm wrong on that.

Michael
sspeirs


Posts: 370
Joined: Mar 2008
Last Visited: 09:59
22nd Apr 2021
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 20.24hrs on Sat 24 May 14
jabuzzard Wrote:

The issue with that is in my mind is that the "piste" that joins it to those runs can often be narrow, a bit steep and therefore off putting to those not so confident. At times the notion that it is a green run is a complete joke.



Know what you mean. I've often thought (and I've heard others comment on the slopes) that a few of the Glencoe runs are a grade higher than their piste colour would suggest.
Agree that the steeper part of Mugs Alley probably merits it a blue, and the Main Basin - maybe not this season when very flat - can be close to a red (and is more challenging than reds I've skied elsewhere) - at least in early in the season conditions when it's a bit steeper in places. The Spring Run would almost certainly be a black in other resorts and the Canyon too (I think I noticed that in last season's piste map it had been changed from Red to Black, but I could be wrong on that).

OF course always makes it seem a wee bit easier when you ski elsewhere!

growwild


Posts: 3550
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: 2014 Summer Works
Date Posted: 21.58hrs on Sat 24 May 14
Bore a tunnel fae the bottom of the access straight up tae the bottom of the spring run. That should sort the wind out and ya might get a few Glencoe sovereigns oot the waste..
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