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muzza


Posts: 57
Joined: Mar 2014
Last Visited: 09:31
12th Sep 2020
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 15.09hrs on Tue 7 Jul 15
On T-bar v Poma debate: T-bars are much easier for newbies and boarders as you have time to position yourself before the cord starts to pull. They can also double up, allowing a higher level of uplift.

On manning drag lifts: The only drag lift I know of with someone at the top is the Wall T-Bar, and I always thought that this was only required to stop folk wrapping the T-bars round the bull wheel.

On new lifts: The capital costs of a chair are much more than a drag lift, and they do require to be manned at the top. Of course less work is required to keep the uptrack and/or approaches in order, so this will offset some additional costs. But I agree that chairs really need to be at least part of the future in Scotland, and we can see that taking shape with both the Shee and Coe replacing or planning chairs over the next couple of seasons.

Other factors also come into play here; People returning from Alpine holidays will be looking for chairs if possible, boarders find chairs better uplift as it stops your hip betting pulled out of it's socket all day! And as the population ages there will be a good market in the more mature punter, who would probably welcome a seat for a bit... I'm only 43 and I know I do!
tim1mw


Posts: 700
Joined: Nov 2006
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 18.53hrs on Tue 7 Jul 15
For me buttons are much more comfortable to ride, vs T-Bars which I find physically painful (and I'm a skier not a boarder).

My feet naturally point outwards when I'm standing normally, pointing both feet directly forwards when standing straight puts a lot of pressure on my knee joints. Add to that the uneven pull of the T-bar putting additional sideways pressure on the knee joint and this adds up to a lot of pain! On a button lift I can bend my knees and splay my legs to compensate. This position is possible when riding a T-Bar solo, but more difficult. Riding in a pair, it's impossible, doing would cause me to knock my partner of the other side of the bar (my inside leg would be roughly inline with the centre of the unoccupied half of the bar). When queue lines are long, I do share (and suffer). If it's quiet I frequently have to explain my problem to other slope users who will otherwise try and share with me "to make it easier". I promise I'm not anti-social. It really does hurt!

Regarding capacity, Poma buttons tend to run faster than T-Bars, which at least partly compensates for doubling up on T-Bars. Does anybody know how the typical line spacing compares? That would also have an impact.
alan


Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
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27th Mar 2024
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Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 20.46hrs on Tue 7 Jul 15
Regarding capacity, Poma buttons tend to run faster than T-Bars, which at least partly compensates for doubling up on T-Bars. Does anybody know how the typical line spacing compares? That would also have an impact.


Line speed doesn't determine capacity, it's hanger spacing in seconds. In most cases the T-bars have more capacity, a lot of the Poma's here are pretty poor capacity wise because the have relatively short racks or are underpowered. On CairnGorm really only the Daylodge Poma which has a large rack, powerful drive and thus (normally) a short light cycle can really rival the t-bars for capacity.

For a given physical carrier spacing distance a faster line speed will increase the nominal capacity because it will reduce the interval in seconds. In theory a t-bar can shift 1200ppl per hour, the highest capacity Pomas (like the Daylodge) have a nominal capacity of 1000ppl per hour.

On CairnGorm uplift capacity has been further trashed over the years in addition to by reducing the number of lifts, because slower linespeeds with same carrier spacing (Cas T-bar notable in last 3 years) and much greater carrier spacing at similar line speed (Ciste and Ptarmigan T-bar, when the spring boxes were replaced with oilboxes in 2001). The same happened back in 1998 to the Ciste Chair when capacity was reduced from 1000pp per hour to 600ppl per hour by having far fewer new carriers than old ones.

Moving ahead a few years, once the Meall Odhar chair is installed, season's like the one just gone will be significantly better than 2015 was at Glenshee because the problem of snow nearly all coming from the West will be mitigated by much easier circulation on Meall Odhar and thus also to/from Coire Fionn and much greater uplift capacity on the Cairnwell which tends to like Coire Fionn get the best of the snow in very Westerly seasons.

Which means all things being equal unless there is sudden shift on CairnGorm, given reasonable snow conditions at both, Glenshee is going to wipe the floor with CairnGorm.
alan


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27th Mar 2024
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Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 21.00hrs on Tue 7 Jul 15
The Wall T-bar and the top tows at Glencoe have a manned top station, but no other surface tows in Scotland have manned stations and the new Old Mugs Alley Tow won't have either.

PeterS


Posts: 980
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13th Mar 2021
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Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 22.07hrs on Tue 7 Jul 15
Given the choice between the m1 Poma or the cas T bar wouldn't most skiers choose the M1 ?
some frustrated skier


Posts: 236
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Last Visited: 21:55
16th Feb 2021
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 22.15hrs on Tue 7 Jul 15
I do wonder how much capital it would be to upgrade the M1 base station to allow the same uplift as the Day Lodge.

Probably less than most think. Especially when talking of building being replaced.
alan


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Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 22.31hrs on Tue 7 Jul 15
PeterS Wrote:
Given the choice between the m1 Poma or the cas T bar wouldn't most skiers choose the M1 ?


You can access many more runs, plus the Ciste side and Ptarmigan Restaurant from the M1 Poma, but you can only access the Cas and Fiacaill area from the Cas T-bar.

Thus at anyone time more people are likely to be wanting to use the M1 Poma, but primarily because of where the lift goes to rather than that it's a Poma instead of a T-bar. While if you are wanting to ski the Fiacaill area you'd go for the T-bar not the Poma.

It's actually part of the problem with the M1 that it serves Coire Cas via the Traverse, because a lot of early intermediates like the Traverse because it enables them to go flat-out... so a lot of people who are skiing Coire Cas use the M1 because it gives more vertical and allows you to do the Traverse as well as the Cas. This is also a problem in that many people who really shouldn't be using the M1 Poma try too, which causes stops and sometimes longer stoppages due to derailments and damage.

The M1 can have a huge queue and many of them are lapping Coire Cas, which is why the Lady can be glorious and virtually empty.



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 22.34hrs Tue 7 Jul 15 by alan.
muzza


Posts: 57
Joined: Mar 2014
Last Visited: 09:31
12th Sep 2020
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 06.32hrs on Wed 8 Jul 15
alan Wrote:
The Wall T-bar and the top tows at Glencoe have a manned top station, but no other surface tows in Scotland have manned stations and the new Old Mugs Alley Tow won't have either.


I've seen the station at the top of the Main Basin (or what's left of it!) manned in the past, but this seems to have been the exception rather than the rule this year.
Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 07.39hrs on Wed 8 Jul 15
PeterS Wrote:
Given the choice between the m1 Poma or the cas T bar wouldn't most skiers choose the M1 ?


The Cas is achingly slow. It might make it easier for beginners. If the Cas and the M1 served the same terrain, it would be the M1 everytime for me. However, if the Cas were operated at a faster speed, it would be different.
PeterS


Posts: 980
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13th Mar 2021
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Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 07.40hrs on Wed 8 Jul 15
Jabuzzard, I would imagine that new chairlifts would increase staffing costs because unlike a Poma they require a minimum of two staff. Add the cost of purchase, installation and delivery and refurbishment of existing lifts looks a lot cheaper.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 07.40hrs Wed 8 Jul 15 by PeterS.
igloo4you


Posts: 522
Joined: Oct 2009
Last Visited: 16:28
22nd Apr 2021
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 08.33hrs on Wed 8 Jul 15
Muzza, always staff at the top of the Main basin when lift running.

alan


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27th Mar 2024
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Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 09.20hrs on Wed 8 Jul 15
Jabuzzard, I would imagine that new chairlifts would increase staffing costs because unlike a Poma they require a minimum of two staff.


It's not as clear cut as people would often imagine. On a surface lift there may just be one lifty, but the uptrack needs prepared daily (and sometimes more often). That's machine time which is a wage + contribution to machine cost + fuel, snow fencing for the uptrack has to be maintained.

There's also the potential depending on resort layout to replace 2 or more surface lifts with one higher capacity chairlift.
jabuzzard


Posts: 885
Joined: Jan 2010
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16th Apr 2021
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 23.35hrs on Wed 8 Jul 15
alan Wrote:
Jabuzzard, I would imagine that new chairlifts would increase staffing costs because unlike a Poma they require a minimum of two staff.

It's not as clear cut as people would often imagine. On a surface lift there may just be one lifty, but the uptrack needs prepared daily (and sometimes more often). That's machine time which is a wage + contribution to machine cost + fuel, snow fencing for the uptrack has to be maintained.

There's also the potential depending on resort layout to replace 2 or more surface lifts with one higher capacity chairlift.


I would add that instead of maintaining an uptrack those piste machines could be grooming runs as well, which will lead to better customer satisfaction, which will lead to more visits.

On replacing multiple lifts with high capacity chairs, a single quad chair could replace all the existing Sunnyside lifts at Glenshee for example. So you loose all the staff required for the poma's, the maintenance on the poma's, the uptrack maintenance, and replace a double with a quad chair which will take basically the same amount of maintenance and staff as a double chair. A big reduction in operational costs, or you could choose to do more preventative maintenance etc. for better customer experience.

At the end of the day the majority of customers expect chairs. Sure the people posting on winterhighland might be happy with surface drag lifts, but they are not representative of the majority of potential customers. I want more customers through the gates because that secures the future of the centres and refurbishing large numbers of surface drag lifts is not the way forward.

Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvements
Date Posted: 07.31hrs on Thu 9 Jul 15
jabuzzard Wrote:


At the end of the day the majority of customers expect chairs. Sure the people posting on winterhighland might be happy with surface drag lifts, but they are not representative of the majority of potential customers. I want more customers through the gates because that secures the future of the centres and refurbishing large numbers of surface drag lifts is not the way forward.


Agreed, but where does the necessary capital come from for literally £multi-million chairlift replacements ?
PeterS


Posts: 980
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13th Mar 2021
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Re: Glenshee Summer 2015 Improvementsjgj
Date Posted: 08.53hrs on Thu 9 Jul 15
I think the twin sunny side Poma can be operated by one person which is very efficient.

replacing tows with chairs would reduce resilience to wind and probably not increase uphill capacity or speed compared with now. Surely it's a Better strategy to maintain some spare capacity? Is that not the lesson from cairngorm ?



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 08.58hrs Thu 9 Jul 15 by PeterS.
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