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alan


Posts: 10733
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 18:17
20th Jan 2021
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Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 11.22hrs on Wed 28 Oct 15
Suilven Wrote:
Appears to be total madness. Flat roofs and big windows in probably the windiest/snowiest/coldest place in the UK. If the architect's ever been to Coire Cas, I doubt it was in winter...


The concept is to have much of the roofs flat in order to be 'green roofs' due to the scale of the building. This obviously has a huge structural and thus cost consequence, because of the huge load bearing capacity required so the flat roof that can take the roof, the soil, the vegetation, then potentially more than a metre of rain saturated snowpack.

Thus it seems likely more facility for less £££s could be delivered with a distributed approach, particularly given the training facilities would arguably be better situated at Glenmore and operated as a joint venture with the Lodge where both would benefit from the combination of facilities available adjacent to each other.

If the objective is a world class built mountain environment and visitor service, it can't be delivered by viewing the mountain in isolation. The Ski Road above Glenmore doesn't really join CairnGorm with Glenmore, it rather serves to isolate the mountain from Glenmore.
jabuzzard


Posts: 878
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 17:22
20th Jan 2021
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 13.41hrs on Wed 28 Oct 15
muzza Wrote:

The Riverside Museum in Glasgow is a classic case of this. A very fancy building, miles from transport links, that when you go inside is full of exhibits you can't see because they're miles away stuck on a wall. The cheap cafe in the old Transport Museum is now a fancy table service place where most Glaswegians can't afford to eat.


I think the £1 billion to redevelop the riverside at Dundee along with a vastly over budget (£31 million and counting) V&A Museum is a bigger example of a waste of public money. It is costing as much as the Edinburgh Trams for far far less benefit but far far less public scrutiny. The sync in me says the SNP government does not want to probe too deeply into the failings of an SNP council.

tim


Posts: 197
Joined: Oct 2003
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 18.33hrs on Wed 28 Oct 15
The vast majority of the 1bn budget for Dundee city centre is not from public funds but even if it was that's 1/167th of the latest projected cost of replacing our weapons of mass destruction on the clyde which our esteemed tory leaders (and their Labour predecessors) are intent on (but you probably support that!). Much of the V&A's cost is from the national lottery. That said, I disagree with Dundee City Council piling on the debt for future generations of Dundonians to pay off.

But back to the issue.... the wall surface looks like concrete in the sketches(???)...so another glass and concrete shitbox that will look awful in a few years when weathered and out of fashion. It would sit better in Glasgow city centre than halfway up Cairngorm. The money would be far better spent improving the lift network and the conditions of the workers (I heard last season the lowly paid lifties had to stage a mutiny after management tried to tell them they weren't allowed to ski/ride to their lifts...what a joke). Idiots.

Look at the Lecht base station or the round cafe in Glenshee for recent(ish) mountain development in tune with it's surroundings.
tim1mw


Posts: 699
Joined: Nov 2006
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 18.39hrs on Wed 28 Oct 15
I've got no problem with the idea of a signature building in principle. If designed with a degree of common sense, then it doesn't add that much to the cost to build something striking vs a standard concrete box.

I quite like the concept of "green roofs", but as Alan has correctly pointed out if you add in the tons of snow it will need to support during winter and it becomes vastly expensive. This is a signature design that simply doesn't make sense for it's environment. There is a reason why steeply angled roofs are popular in areas with high snow fall.

The other problem here is that this project looks to have been commissioned in isolation, they haven't really considered the business as a whole and what it needs. Building a single hugely expensive building and with very little work being done to address the rest of the business is a recipe for failure. It's the funicular all over again... (and will go the same way). To be fair as posted here in the past, the original plans for the funicular did include lift upgrades which were later dropped, so this was at least thought about back then even if it didn't happen.
jabuzzard


Posts: 878
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 17:22
20th Jan 2021
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 12.20hrs on Thu 29 Oct 15
tim Wrote:
The vast majority of the 1bn budget for Dundee city centre is not from public funds but even if it was that's 1/167th of the latest projected cost of replacing our weapons of mass destruction on the clyde which our esteemed tory leaders (and their Labour predecessors) are intent on (but you probably support that!). Much of the V&A's cost is from the national lottery. That said, I disagree with Dundee City Council piling on the debt for future generations of Dundonians to pay off.


The £167 billion for the Vanguard replacement over it's ~40 year lifespan (aka the submarines as the missiles are not being replaced), comes out of the 2% of GDP to be spent on defence as a NATO commitment (which currently the UK is just short of meeting). As such the money is not available for anything other than defence spending unless you believe we should leave NATO. Given that staying in NATO is the policy of all the major political parties in the United Kingdom including the SNP, then the implication that the money could be spent on other things is intellectually dishonest.

I do believe leaving NATO would be abject stupidity. I also don't believe in unilateral nuclear disarmament.


growwild


Posts: 3530
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 13.33hrs on Thu 29 Oct 15
I do believe the telegraph propagates dumbness.
Sunshine


Posts: 121
Joined: Jan 2006
Last Visited: 18:41
3rd May 2019
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 19.18hrs on Thu 29 Oct 15
I think you will find that £26 million, including write offs, has been spent on the funicular, before any input to Natural Retreats.
alan


Posts: 10733
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 18:17
20th Jan 2021
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Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 12.41hrs on Sun 1 Nov 15
Some more info and images: [www.scottishconstructionnow.com]

Adam Gough from Natural Retreats commented:
Current activities on the mountain are heavily weather-dependent and the buildings are no longer fit for purpose. This project will address both of these problems and transform CairnGorm into a four-season mountain destination.


To improve the weather resilience of the business, some elements of CMLs trading must move to either Coire na Ciste or lower such that at least some of the business can operate irrespective of whether the roads to/from Coire Cas can be kept open.

Weather is rarely as severe in the lower Ciste as in Coire Cas, and the road into Coire na Ciste is nowhere near as exposed or vulnerable to very severe drifting that the roads to/from Coire Cas are.

I truly believe our plans will elevate CairnGorm Mountain to one of Europe’s top leisure and adventure destinations, which would be a fantastic boost to the area’s economy.”


Neither of these objectives can really be achieved within the area of the Coire Cas carpark.

The Ciste Carpark nestles into the hillside at the tree-line in a much more sympathetic way than the manor in which the Cas Carpark cuts a barren swathe across the contours of the hill in Coire Cas. The location of the Ciste Base overlooking both Loch Morlich, Glenmore Forest and the Ryvoan Pass is quite simply a far more scenic location than the Cas Carpark.

Natural Retreats proposals as they stand do nothing to address the lack of facilities in Coire na Ciste, yet will result in increased use of the Ciste Carpark . There is nothing world class about arriving at a carpark 1800ft up a Highland Mountain after a lengthy drive, without so much as a toilet available. Increasing the number of days the Ciste Carpark has to be used will likely have a negative effect on customer demand if no facilities are available in the Ciste.

The interpretative, educational, conference and freestyle training facilities envisaged would also be better situated where access is more reliable.

Plans for a proposed multi-million pound project to enhance facilities on CairnGorm Mountain and transform it into a year-round destination will go on public display for the first time this week.


This is exactly the sort of 'speak' that went with the Funicular project. There clearly is an opportunity and a need to improve facilities on CairnGorm for all visitors. A centralising approach based around the Funicular has failed to achieve these goals, making the same mistakes again, with the same sort of budget is unlikely to change the outcomes - just squander funds that could achieve so much more across the mountain.
Snowweasel


Posts: 394
Joined: Oct 2006
Last Visited: 10:54
20th Jan 2021
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 08.52hrs on Mon 2 Nov 15
I wish WH had a "like" button, Alan. What you say makes so much sense. Is there no way that sensible, reasoned objections and proposals can get a proper airing other than on Winterhighland?
somnambulant_sasquatch


Posts: 120
Joined: Dec 2011
Last Visited: 12:56
31st Jul 2019
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 10.02hrs on Mon 2 Nov 15
Snowweasel Wrote:
I wish WH had a "like" button, Alan. What you say makes so much sense. Is there no way that sensible, reasoned objections and proposals can get a proper airing other than on Winterhighland?

they can be copied to the facebook page, but that usually leads to a quick banning.
tim1mw


Posts: 699
Joined: Nov 2006
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 10.22hrs on Mon 2 Nov 15
Snowweasel Wrote:
I wish WH had a "like" button, Alan. What you say makes so much sense. Is there no way that sensible, reasoned objections and proposals can get a proper airing other than on Winterhighland?


I assume that this has yet to go through the planning authorities, so that at least will provide an opportunity to object. You could probably lobby the bodies providing grant funding which will pay for this, although I suspect that won't do much good since they are presuably already on board.

I think the argument that once again Cairngorm is recieving the bulk of public funds compared to it's competitors needs to be made. The lift improvement grant money was peanuts compared to this. Which begs a question, since the funding bodies have now shown a willingness to directly fund improvement of snowsports uplift and have therefore recognised the benfits which this brings, why wasn't a portion of this funding (say £2M) "ring fenced" for uplift? That's a pretty small sum in context and it would have guaranteed a much more positive reception from the snowsports enthusiasts who form the largest part of the customer base and who also provide advise to people who are thinking about going to Scotland to Ski. I always say to people "Don't bother with Cairngorm, the best runs will be closed and you'll spend most of your day in a queue. Go to Glenshee or Glencoe instead!"
Doug_Bryce


Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 12.24hrs on Tue 3 Nov 15
The cynic is me wonders if Natural Retreats actually want these plans to fail planning permission at the first hurdle....

The designs, scale and cost look like madness. However it is worse than that - building new retail facilities in Coire Cas won't attract new customers to the area. Indeed they can only dilute existing trade from Aviemore... Improving uplift might however increase visitor numbers (in both summer and winter).

I am pretty sure £15 million can't be very far off what it would cost to build an access gondola from Glenmore ? Which of course would solve many issues.... and also allow the base building to be constructed lower down the mountain for less money in a better location (add in accommodation etc). Surely a much better, and more profitable, use of public funds for both summer and winter sad smiley



[www.haggistrap.co.uk]
jabuzzard


Posts: 878
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 17:22
20th Jan 2021
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 17.34hrs on Tue 3 Nov 15
I would imagine it would be less than the cost of a gondola from Glenmore. The
Tovière gondola in Tignes a couple of seasons ago apparently cost €17 million according to Goggle though I am sure the sign in the resort said €11 million. Anyway Google tells me that is £12 million. Either way it is a sizeable chunk of change form £15 million.
Doug_Bryce


Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 08.35hrs on Wed 4 Nov 15
There are obviously substantial buildings sitting empty on the mountain (i.e shieling) that could clealry be renovated for much less money than current proposals as well :-(

Cairngorm have received the lions share of public funding. However this money has been used to specifically diversify and dilute the Snowsports aspect of the buisness - which can only be damaging for the Scottish snowsport industry as a whole....

[www.haggistrap.co.uk]



Edited 3 times. Last edit at 08.44hrs Wed 4 Nov 15 by Doug_Bryce.
Hipennine


Posts: 1057
Joined: Dec 2005
Last Visited: 16:22
20th Jan 2021
Re: CML / Natural Retreats pre-planning drop in sessions Oct 26/27/28
Date Posted: 12.50hrs on Wed 4 Nov 15
Successful, profitable privately owned ski centres receive a relatively small amount of public funding which they invest in improving uplift facilities for their core business, whereas Cairngorm doesn't. Strange isnt it ?
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