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Dunc


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 08.49hrs on Fri 1 Jun 18
some frustrated skier Wrote:
alan Wrote:
Should add to the above it's also a concern that while for last winter all areas showed an increased slice of the pie vs CairnGorm, there is a growing feeling what has happened on CairnGorm has not just resulted in displacement to the other areas but an overall shrinking of the pie as people are lost completely to Scottish Snowsports.

Could the drop in overall numbers be a fact that spare cash in everyone's pockets is being reduced more and more. To ski for 2 days and staying for 2 nights with a family will cost at least 300. Not a great deal for unreliable weather and ungrateful operating company (CML if anyone is wondering).


There appears to be nothing presented on this thread so far that shows overall skier days across all resorts is decreasing. I.e. you can't conclude the size of the pie is decreasing from the numbers here. Alan talks about a 'feeling' that it has, but there are no numbers to back that up. It would be very interesting to see them though....but presumably the overall skier days fluctuate so much from season to season, it might be difficult to make conclusions.
Very bad for Cairngorm though. And would this be the first season ever when Glenshee has taken the biggest market share? IIRC Glenshee didn't even get that much snow early on this season, compared with the others, so doubly impressive.

facelikeanrss


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 09.43hrs on Fri 1 Jun 18
some frustrated skier Wrote:

Could the drop in overall numbers be a fact that spare cash in everyone's pockets is being reduced more and more. To ski for 2 days and staying for 2 nights with a family will cost at least 300. Not a great deal for unreliable weather and ungrateful operating company (CML if anyone is wondering).


The notion pushed by the government and the media that we all (on average) have less spare money in our pockets is a complete falsehood.

The following is a quote from National Office of Statistics 2017 report on household disposable income:

'Households have more disposable income than at any time previously.'

My personal view of the biggest barrier to ski centres attracting business is that there are now far more options for spending our disposable income than ever before. Perhaps this explains one of the reasons that Glencoe appear to be logorithmically increasing their market share: they clearly have by far the most diversified business in terms of what they have to offer the public.


Hipennine


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 12.07hrs on Fri 1 Jun 18
Dunc Wrote:
some frustrated skier Wrote:
alan Wrote:
Should add to the above it's also a concern that while for last winter all areas showed an increased slice of the pie vs CairnGorm, there is a growing feeling what has happened on CairnGorm has not just resulted in displacement to the other areas but an overall shrinking of the pie as people are lost completely to Scottish Snowsports.

Could the drop in overall numbers be a fact that spare cash in everyone's pockets is being reduced more and more. To ski for 2 days and staying for 2 nights with a family will cost at least 300. Not a great deal for unreliable weather and ungrateful operating company (CML if anyone is wondering).

There appears to be nothing presented on this thread so far that shows overall skier days across all resorts is decreasing. I.e. you can't conclude the size of the pie is decreasing from the numbers here. Alan talks about a 'feeling' that it has, but there are no numbers to back that up. It would be very interesting to see them though....but presumably the overall skier days fluctuate so much from season to season, it might be difficult to make conclusions.
Very bad for Cairngorm though. And would this be the first season ever when Glenshee has taken the biggest market share? IIRC Glenshee didn't even get that much snow early on this season, compared with the others, so doubly impressive.


By simple maths, taking the Glencoe numbers and %'s we get the annual totals for all 5 centres as:

2003/4 164319
2004/5 147239
2005/6 154776
2006/7 78995
2007/8 164993
2008/9 159877
2009/10 374964
2010/11 290021
2011/12 131687
2012/13 290909
2013/14 235130
2014/15 230566
2015/16 207516
2016/17 53668
2017/18 249885

Therefore only 2012/13, 2010/11 and 2009/10 had more than 2017/18.

The average annual total for the 15 seasons is 195636, so 2017/18 is well above average. Therefore Glenshee and Glencoe in particular seem to be gaining significantly at Cairngorm's expense.

Given the snow lie that Cairngorm have had this year, the above figures prove that the usual claims that their woes are all because of climate change, and therefore need to diversify, are rubbish. The fact that Glenshee with a shorter season has overtaken them in absolute numbers should be ringing loud alarm bells at HIE as keepers of the public purse.



Edited 3 times. Last edit at 12.21hrs Fri 1 Jun 18 by Hipennine.

tim1mw


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 09.45hrs on Mon 4 Jun 18
Considering the planned new lifts at Glenshee and Glencoe, this has got to represent a welcome revenue boost to help pay for them (grant aid not withstanding).

Do you have the total operating days available as well, I did a calculation a few years back which worked out how many visitors each centre got on days when they were open for business, GS came out well ahead of CG in that score, making it clear that CG were only maintaining there market share because they ran a longer season. If you work on the assumption that all other things being equal, with seasonal full time staff being employed for longer and that casual staff are onside only on operating days, it equals a lower operating margin for CG. I suppose the only other factor to consider there is the cost impact of running a small lift system on a larger number of days, vs a larger one on a small number of days, however I suspect the cost of the funicular balances that out and some.

On a personal note, I think the last time I bothered to go to CG was 2011. It was never my first choice and even with lift system upgrades I can't see that changing. However, I used to consider it worth dropping by, now I just don't see the point.

I can't say I'm surprised that GS and GC are the prime beneficiaries here, visible investment and improvements tends to attract customers.

Doug_Bryce


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 10.03hrs on Mon 4 Jun 18
The long term decline in numbers at Cairngorm is a self fulfilling prophecy. Reduced uplift capacity unsurprisingly limits demand - the reasons are well discussed winking smiley

One factor not mentioned is the A9 average speed cameras. Cairngorm used to be day-trip-able from the central belt if you weren't too shy about putting the foot down. IMHO the A9 is now a nicer / safer / more chilled road to drive. However it does take 3hrs each way. So a trip up to Cairngorm requires accommodation and is therefore less likely to be spontaneous.

In many ways the public funding at Cairngorm has been 'anti-funding' and destructive. It specifically aimed to diversify the business away from snowsports. Of course winter is very much low season in the highlands - so we should be encouraging visitors during those months. Aviemore is the closest Scotland has to a "ski town" and historically attracts the highest annual skier numbers. The entire industry would surely benefit indirectly from investment in the uplift (particularly Coire na Ciste).





Edited 2 times. Last edit at 10.04hrs Mon 4 Jun 18 by Doug_Bryce.

DonaldM


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 10.15hrs on Mon 4 Jun 18
facelikeanrss Wrote:
some frustrated skier Wrote:

Could the drop in overall numbers be a fact that spare cash in everyone's pockets is being reduced more and more. To ski for 2 days and staying for 2 nights with a family will cost at least 300. Not a great deal for unreliable weather and ungrateful operating company (CML if anyone is wondering).

The notion pushed by the government and the media that we all (on average) have less spare money in our pockets is a complete falsehood.

The following is a quote from National Office of Statistics 2017 report on household disposable income:

'Households have more disposable income than at any time previously.'

My personal view of the biggest barrier to ski centres attracting business is that there are now far more options for spending our disposable income than ever before. Perhaps this explains one of the reasons that Glencoe appear to be logorithmically increasing their market share: they clearly have by far the most diversified business in terms of what they have to offer the public.


I agree and disagree with you. There are many more opportunities to spend money these days but not everyone has money and less and less people have enough if they are already struggling.

Stats like the one above don't pick up local dimensions, changes in demographics and often ignore those less well off. Hence newer measures such as SIMDs and so on.

Skiing is not cheap and those with little income basically can't afford it. Ski centres could reduce prices for schools, for example, which are high on certain measures.

growwild


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 02.38hrs on Fri 8 Jun 18
Is swallowing government statistics a sign of blinkered intelligence?

There any demographics available for the centres?

Wit centre attracts the poshest twats fae the poshest soulless 'schemes'. Wit centre comes in at number 2 tae Glencoe for having the best herbalist etc?

Knowing the numbers visiting aint worth a feck if ya dont know who and what make them up.





Affro


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 09.42hrs on Fri 8 Jun 18

Skiing is not cheap and those with little income basically can't afford it. Ski centres could reduce prices for schools, for example, which are high on certain measures.


Glenshee has been a winner this year for me due to the lowest family ticket price, It's an expensive day out for 2 adults, 2 Kids, and that is when you have all your own gear. Had a few days with just me and one kid and Glencoe is the resort of choice for those days due to the great terrain and I want to encourage the investment they are putting into the place.
Haven't skied Cairngorm for years, actually went up to Aviemore with the family for the weekend this winter, there was great snow but we didn't bother going skiing as wasn't prepared to part with 120 for a day standing in queues.

Very sad to see the decline at CG as some of my most memorable days of skiing in Scotland have been lapping the Ciste Gully from the WW chair.

telemarker


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 20.43hrs on Sat 9 Jun 18
Not surprised to see the skier days falling at Cairngorm
Heads in the ground

Doug_Bryce


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 06.09hrs on Sun 10 Jun 18
Re : cost of skiing.
Yes, it can be expensive and inaccessible, especially for families.
However often it is the auxiliary costs that make it pricey.
Petrol, accomodation etc more than half the total cost.

Lift passes are reasonable value so I am not sure what resorts can do to make skiing cheaper. Most resorts already do 100 season pass for kids which is great value.

If you get a season pass / stay locally / ski regularly then skiing is not that expensive (... though not everyone so lucky).



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 06.37hrs Sun 10 Jun 18 by Doug_Bryce.

Beastie


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 12.45hrs on Sun 10 Jun 18
Doug_Bryce Wrote:

One factor not mentioned is the A9 average speed cameras. Cairngorm used to be day-trip-able from the central belt if you weren't too shy about putting the foot down. IMHO the A9 is now a nicer / safer / more chilled road to drive. However it does take 3hrs each way. So a trip up to Cairngorm requires accommodation and is therefore less likely to be spontaneous.



This is a good point too, and I agree I don't want to go back to the bad old days but it does make a trip a bit of a thought if weather is looking iffy.

Re: price of skiing, I wish there was something halfway between season ticket and paying each time you go. Something in the 150 mark that got you maybe 6 or 7 trips (maybe not valid at half term etc). I'm just never going to pay for a season ticket, but I'd love to be able to go a *bit* more often than I do, but not be that bothered if for whatever reason I never made the trips if that makes sense.

jas


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 20.24hrs on Sun 10 Jun 18
Glenshee do the advantage card 60 gets you 40% off all lift tickets.

It would be great if there was a similar thing that covered all areas, say 150 and gives you 30% off lift tickets. Cant see all the centers would ever agree though.





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 20.25hrs Sun 10 Jun 18 by jas.

Beastie


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 17.31hrs on Mon 11 Jun 18
jas Wrote:
Glenshee do the advantage card 60 gets you 40% off all lift tickets.


Oooh thanks for the tip that'd do me most of the time.

Elsie


Guest
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 17.17hrs on Fri 15 Jun 18
Thanks for heads up on the GC advantage card.

Just to add my 2p worth having read the above comments:
a) the A9 average speed cameras do make a heck of a difference for us driving up from the South. At best makes it a really boring drive requiring constant concentration; speed of overall progress is annoying when the roads are empty, and often hampered also by the 50mph HGV restrictions. Used to drive up a lot before they went in, and it was a much better drive. Now we will head elsewhere if possible.
b) it's too far, just, for us to drive up, ski a day and drive home: and if the weather's kind we'll be up for as many continuous days as it allows, whatever resorts are best. The fuel costs I will accept, and the upllift pass costs are copeable with, although high compared to bigger European resorts often (I really want chairs and gondolas for that price, not only long drag lifts, which I find tiring and painful). However, the real problem is the rip-off price of accommodation and eating out (if McDonalds not nearby!). Early season 35-40 last minute can be had for a night's b&b for a couple. Mid season it starts getting to 60+, later season it's 75-85 or easily more. That, for me, makes it not affordable to come up to Scotland as often as I'd like, if at all later season. I have the time but not the money. And if I want several days' worth of snowsports I can get European accommodation for a lot less; put in some cheap flights, even a last minute package deal, and it's really not worth bothering with the chancy random conditions and weather in Scotland, is it?




Edited 1 times. Last edit at 17.18hrs Fri 15 Jun 18 by Elsie.

alan


Posts: 10750
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 23:28
2nd Dec 2021
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: 2017-18 skier numbers
Date Posted: 12.23hrs on Sun 17 Jun 18
A rather astonishing puff piece appeared on the Press and Journal website on Friday: [www.pressandjournal.co.uk].



CairnGorm Mountain recorded it's lowest ever market share in the 2017/18 season. The collapse in CairnGorm's market share since 2014 when Natural Retreats took over, has cost the Strathspey economy millions and is of growing concern to the Aviemore Business Association

Season Tickets may have sold faster this year, because the cheapest early bird price was only available until 31st May instead of the normal early bird cut off date which traditionally has been 30th September.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12.25hrs Sun 17 Jun 18 by alan.

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