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alan


Posts: 10750
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 23:28
2nd Dec 2021
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 17.47hrs on Mon 3 Dec 18
If your going the full hog on installed snow making then modern lower energy lances are still ahead in the game with a higher startup wetbulb temperature. The Air/Water lances are a fraction of the cost per gun as the cost is the central compressors and air pipes, but if you are opening up the ground for water and power anayway the additional cost of an air pipe is modest - indeed much less power needs to be distributed with lances too. So you could have power and water to run 8 fan guns or 10 lances. But you might have 25 lances installed and be able to switch between them at a touch of a screen instead of derigging 8 fan guns, dragging them around and then re-rigging them again.

That said most successful snow making networks are a mixture, fan guns can produce a lot more for the same energy in very good snow making windows. Though variable flow lances are now out there.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 18.53hrs Mon 3 Dec 18 by alan.
jabuzzard


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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 18.01hrs on Mon 3 Dec 18
alan Wrote:
Glenshee needs to grid connected going forward, but it would need strategic investment to create a through main as there isnít enough juice at the Braemar or Spittal.


I am sure I was roundly lambasted for suggesting this in the past... Bit like all weather snow making...
alan


Posts: 10750
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 23:28
2nd Dec 2021
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 19.00hrs on Mon 3 Dec 18
jabuzzard Wrote:
alan Wrote:
Glenshee needs to grid connected going forward, but it would need strategic investment to create a through main as there isnít enough juice at the Braemar or Spittal.

I am sure I was roundly lambasted for suggesting this in the past... Bit like all weather snow making...


It's not incomparable to the situation at Kirkwood Mountain in California, that took purchase by Vail Resorts and a $32m investment to put on the grid. We'd not be talking that high for Glenshee, but it would be way beyond the ski area's financial capacity, yet rural grid capacity and often single phase dead ends are becoming a frequent restraint on economic activity in parts of the Highlands and other rural areas of Scotland. Half expecting the lights to go out at Glencoe and down Glen Etive when the new Kingshouse opens!

You were lambasted for suggesting IDE ice makers had a role to play, multiple x the cost of the TechnoAlpin snowfactory for a fraction of the production. Still it has to be said in terms of ski area usage this is bleeding edge tech and it still poor bang for buck in terms of the snow making capacity for your £££s if you have the water and power available to go all guns blazing when conditions allow.
growwild


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 19.47hrs on Mon 3 Dec 18
I've always said simple air/water guns are best for Scotland with there marginal benefits and ya don't need to spend big bucks going tae a snowmaking company just tae make a start - auld fire pump, a compressor and some pipe fittings...

[www.youtube.com]

They internal type mix guns that get air time on that video were looked at years ago for the plateau,they are out the wind and can throw it out but will be far less efficient than the newer lances and are far fae automatic.. I'd maybe have lances in the lower Ciste and White lady and the ones above on sleds elsewhere, along with the factory and fan guns it'd be interesting tae see what works where.

They have the wind and shelter up there and the other centres get tae see what works in varied wind and temps etc. Could be a win for Scottish snow sports and the other centres if they can keep up though if this works up there my cash will be on HIE splurging out on one other centre and leaving the rest tae fight their own battle..

jabuzzard


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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 11.17hrs on Tue 4 Dec 18
alan Wrote:
It's not incomparable to the situation at Kirkwood Mountain in California, that took purchase by Vail Resorts and a $32m investment to put on the grid. We'd not be talking that high for Glenshee, but it would be way beyond the ski area's financial capacity, yet rural grid capacity and often single phase dead ends are becoming a frequent restraint on economic activity in parts of the Highlands and other rural areas of Scotland. Half expecting the lights to go out at Glencoe and down Glen Etive when the new Kingshouse opens!


Yes but when I remarked that I had concerns about the long term viability of Glenshee using generators I was ridiculed. Of course using a diesel generator is about the most expensive and polluting way possible to generate electricity, coupled with the fact they have to ferry fuel around the mountain at great cost with all sorts of environmental risks from spillage. Finally long term trend of fuel prices is not good. At the very least they need a new far more efficient generator that can handle the entire demand of the centre, and cable everything up.

alan Wrote:
You were lambasted for suggesting IDE ice makers had a role to play, multiple x the cost of the TechnoAlpin snowfactory for a fraction of the production. Still it has to be said in terms of ski area usage this is bleeding edge tech and it still poor bang for buck in terms of the snow making capacity for your £££s if you have the water and power available to go all guns blazing when conditions allow.


Maybe, but I was right that all weather snowmaking was a better solution for Scotland than other types of snow making. That is I correctly recognized the problems fan guns and lances in Scotland. Sure the TechnoAlpin is better than the IDE but that does not mean my insight was not correct.

I also recall that Glencoe decided fan guns where a none starter because the snow just got blown away when the trialled it.

It's not a crime to admit you where wrong smiling smiley Meanwhile I will just smile knowing history has proved me correct.

alan


Posts: 10750
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2nd Dec 2021
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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 16.15hrs on Tue 4 Dec 18
jabuzzard Wrote:
It's not a crime to admit you where wrong Meanwhile I will just smile knowing history has proved me correct.


No wonder you cause arguments! What you proposed was off the scale unviable with the tech as it stood. Technology advances and that changes the game, the TA snow factory was the first thing to move the goalposts enough to make it a credible part of the solution.

But PART of the solution is key, even at the base of the Access Chair it would be part of not the whole of an installed snow making solution.

While lances can work in higher winds than fan guns, wind direction and location of the guns is a factor too and the use of fan guns is categorically not ruled out at Glencoe, there are two in situ and they will be added too unless TA come up with some magic module for the snow factory that can increase production in cold temperatures!
growwild


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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 17.50hrs on Tue 4 Dec 18
History is usually made and written by folk that got it wrong....

There were a few other companies messing about with all weather snow making, seen a start up that looked pretty interesting as it looked tae be more snow like than shredded ice and they were in the process of scaling up and expected it tae produce. This was only last year I seen it and had a quick look there but cannae find them, pretty sure they were Italian too so might have been bought up..

If I find the vid I'll stick it in here..


Read in the public reports that Glencoe has 1.5m of machine snow in bits... If that was a consistent level then all good, if its spending a few quid every season just tae make a level field then it's pretty fecking daft long term...

Landscaping and culverts is whats needed tae cut long term costs and have earlier skiing along with snowmaking..


CMartindale


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 19.35hrs on Tue 4 Dec 18
Glenshee would have to be run into the ground to get the level of funding required to get connected to the grid, even then itís a risk.


I think more efficient generators (pretty sure the ones they have are ancient), wind power, even hydrogen fuel cells or lorry mounted Tesla industrial batteries will bring a more realistic solution for future Glenshee without £mís invested from government level, thatís if Braemar even has a robust enough network to support 23 industrial motors!
Beastie


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Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 20.13hrs on Tue 4 Dec 18
CMartindale Wrote:
Glenshee would have to be run into the ground to get the level of funding required to get connected to the grid, even then itís a risk.


I think more efficient generators (pretty sure the ones they have are ancient), wind power, even hydrogen fuel cells or lorry mounted Tesla industrial batteries will bring a more realistic solution for future Glenshee without £mís invested from government level, thatís if Braemar even has a robust enough network to support 23 industrial motors!


You'd hope so; there must be quite wide demand for innovation here in Scotland in general.
growwild


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 20.45hrs on Tue 4 Dec 18
For serious snowmaking at Glenshee the the initial investment would be water storage and air/water/power piped tae x amount of runs to begin with. Power and air can be hired for a couple of months for base building..

Aggreko hire power and oil free air, Atlas Copco has experience in snowmaking and they rent out air here too
jabuzzard


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 10.14hrs on Wed 5 Dec 18
growwild Wrote:
For serious snowmaking at Glenshee the the initial investment would be water storage and air/water/power piped tae x amount of runs to begin with. Power and air can be hired for a couple of months for base building..

Aggreko hire power and oil free air, Atlas Copco has experience in snowmaking and they rent out air here too


Me I would just drill through to Loch Vrotachan which has the added bonus of no or little pumping required, and a lot of water.
jabuzzard


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 10.23hrs on Wed 5 Dec 18
CMartindale Wrote:
I think more efficient generators (pretty sure the ones they have are ancient), wind power, even hydrogen fuel cells or lorry mounted Tesla industrial batteries will bring a more realistic solution for future Glenshee without £mís invested from government level, thatís if Braemar even has a robust enough network to support 23 industrial motors!


Call me a socialist but IMHO it should not be down to Glenshee to 100% fund bringing mains power to the ski centre. I would also note that if the existing network at Braemar and/or the Spittal cannot support the power draw of Glenshee then the network is going to need serious upgrading to support electric vehicles anyway. Heck you need a charging solution at the Glenshee carpark anyway.

However a good first step would be to replace the existing range of generators with a more modern one than can meet the entire demand of the ski area, and connect all the lifts up to it.

Heck HIE can find £1 million down the back of the sofa for Cairngorm, bringing mains power to Glenshee is only fair.
growwild


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 18.04hrs on Wed 5 Dec 18
Aye, drilling straight in there is a decent idea. Could send a drill straight down too and tap into 'free' geothermal energy.. They should be subsidised for the volume of tourists they can bring in and given the land tae develop and lend against......

I read that Harvard is running a sun dimming experiment, the benefits of that could be more snow along with war, famine and more profits for the petrochemical polluters, twats......





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 18.05hrs Wed 5 Dec 18 by growwild.
Beastie


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 21.01hrs on Wed 5 Dec 18
growwild Wrote:
Could send a drill straight down too and tap into 'free' geothermal energy..


Nice idea but as far as I know not a possibility in Scotland, nearest I've seen where it has been mooted as something do-able is county Durham.


awrightski


Guest
Re: Another £1 million for Cairngorm
Date Posted: 22.11hrs on Wed 5 Dec 18
Has Cairngorm taken delivery of a double snow factory? There are 2 containers. I didn't even know that was a thing?

In my opinion it's utterly obscene they've got 2 snow factories plus this delivery of however many fan guns all as a result of negligence and general incompetence. It's rewarding failure and it's BS.

If my name was Mr Meldrum or Mr Glenshee I'd be kicking and screaming outside Charlotte Wright's (No relation) office.
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