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SnowmanDave


Posts: 186
Joined: Dec 2013
Last Visited: 12:36
3rd Mar 2021
SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 08.44hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
I have previously heard rumours of these "problems" but have dismissed them as "teething" problems with the new contract. NOT SO!

Basically the SAR heli's are being told to not help in removing deceased persons from the hills, leaving it all up to the legwork of the MRT.

Also once an "active" casualty is flown off the hill to say a waiting ambulance at the bottom of hill, the SAR if they have time DO NOT fly back & remove the MRT from the hill. Thus leaving the MRT again with a long trek off, which means they are "unavailable" for any immediate callout & are more knackered for the next one.

The people criticised are not the SAR heli's crews as it is the "rules" being laid down upon them from the other "agencies" who also "dispatch" the heli's.

Full info here:-

[www.walkhighlands.co.uk]

[www.grough.co.uk]

Nice quotes:-

"Following a discussion by LMRT team leader with the ARCC, he was told that ‘unfortunately they would not be able to deploy a helicopter to assist due to [Civil Aviation Authority] regulations’."

“We have previously been informed that the search and recovery of presumed-dead casualties is an unacceptable risk to aircraft, crews and SAR passengers."

"Cairngorm MRT members were left at a remote site near the Shelter Stone Crag after a helicopter airlifted the casualty to hospital. The team was left with an 11km walk back to base with all their technical equipment."

"In a recent rescue, ARCC would not authorise a Tayside MRT request to mobilise a helicopter until it received a police incident number, leading to a delay in deploying the aircraft, iSMR said."

This one the heli pilot told ARCC to "get stuffed" effectively:-
"While Lochaber MRT members were preparing to be airlifted to Knoydart to recover the body of walker Ian Stalker, the crew was ordered by ARCC not to undertake the mission but ignored the controller’s instructions and flew the rescuers out to the remote site and helped brought the deceased walker back."


Sorry, but I have removed my initial personal comments in this last section….it just makes my blood boil...!!!


---That was not a fall, I intended to do that!---



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 08.57hrs Sat 3 Nov 18 by SnowmanDave.
Beastie


Posts: 128
Joined: Dec 2013
Last Visited: 09:19
17th May 2020
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 10.10hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Well done to the heli pilot who said get stuffed.

This'll be about money, there's sod all difference in the risk of retrieving a live or dead person.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 10.11hrs Sat 3 Nov 18 by Beastie.
SnowmanDave


Posts: 186
Joined: Dec 2013
Last Visited: 12:36
3rd Mar 2021
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 10.11hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Just to add:-

Just went to the newsagents & noticed its on todays front page of the P&J & also the Daily Telegraph, amongst others.


The MCGA (client) stating things like "our mission is to remove casualties & not deceased persons"...

OK the previous RAF SAR was set up only to help/retrieve downed RAF pilots etc....NOTHING to do with civilians!...& your excuse is???..as you were supposed to retrain "continuity" of full service that was carried out!!!

There are also quotes (letter/email?) etc from a junior transport minister who basically accuses the MRT's of being "lazy" due to wanting lifts back out off the hills, & help in removing the bodies off hills.

Obviously he's never been in the hills up here....about time he was put on work experience & forced to go on a mission to retrieve a body in the depths of winter...

Fecking "tick box Charlie" jobsworths....previous SAR service now ruined all because of the high up lot with no idea of what happens at the coal face telling the people at the coal face what to do..much like what has happened to CGML when NAIL took over...

Personally the heli crews are caught in the middle...I hope they back the MRT & ignore the ARCC etc...would be funny if the heli crews strike over this in support of the MRT, but that is what they need to do to force the issues with the ARCC & MCGA etc.

---That was not a fall, I intended to do that!---



Edited 3 times. Last edit at 10.13hrs Sat 3 Nov 18 by SnowmanDave.
Beastie


Posts: 128
Joined: Dec 2013
Last Visited: 09:19
17th May 2020
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 10.14hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Grough article is very good. If we'd had the balls to vote yes in 2014 this would not be an issue.
Bomp


Posts: 172
Joined: Nov 2010
Last Visited: 07:00
8th Mar 2021
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 11.00hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Beastie Wrote:
Grough article is very good. If we'd had the balls to vote yes in 2014 this would not be an issue.

Too true, we probably wouldn't be able to afford a helicopter at all
pinhead27


Posts: 74
Joined: Feb 2010
Last Visited: 20:21
6th Mar 2021
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 11.33hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Bomp Wrote:
Too true, we probably wouldn't be able to afford a helicopter at all

+1
alan


Posts: 10745
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 18:09
7th Mar 2021
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 12.09hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Bomp Wrote:
Beastie Wrote:
Grough article is very good. If we'd had the balls to vote yes in 2014 this would not be an issue.
Too true, we probably wouldn't be able to afford a helicopter at all


Oh please... but if it were actually true, just stop a moment and ask yourself why? How could it be that the second most energy rich nation in Europe, the one with the best renewables potential, the one that lead world in many fields, one with such a strong brand and related tourism industry (something many nations can only dream off) could be in a position of not being able to afford a helicopter?


Sunshine


Posts: 121
Joined: Jan 2006
Last Visited: 18:41
3rd May 2019
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 12.13hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Reference highlighting the change in policy of the use of Search and Rescue (SAR) helicopters recovering mountain rescue teams and bodies from the hill, after search operations are completed. It must be remembered that the mountain rescue volunteers are the only “all weather” rescue service that there is on the hills. This decision has moved SAR policy back 50 years. This shows a complete lack of respect for what the teams achieve.
Whilst teams are capable of carrying out almost any mission, recovering a body in remote areas can take many hours and many people.
The volunteers have jobs and many are self- employed so it is important that they are off the hill as quickly as possible. In addition, at busy times the team need a rest between incidents.
Mountain rescue is the responsibility of Police Scotland who relies almost totally on the teams because in most areas the police do not have the resources to form teams. Police Scotland needs to fight this change and get it reversed.
I write with 37 years’ experience in the RAF Mountain Rescue Service in an earlier life.


Alpin Bear


Guest
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 13.24hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
MRT do this off their own backs if they dont want to walk back off the hill don't step forward to rescue. If going into the hills why not have insurance to cover the costs of the rescue

Don't see the immediate need for body recovery if it puts others lives at risk

When it was the RAF it was great but that no longer exists so it is in the private sector and we need to accept this. Those travelling into the hills especially during the winter need to be accountable for their own safety and actions


growwild


Posts: 3546
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 14.53hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Waiting on a police number before they budge says it all.

The butchers apron money mentality need tae stop, its been the scourge of most countries in the world.
DonaldM


Posts: 871
Joined: Jan 2009
Last Visited: 20:58
10th Aug 2019
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 21.42hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Bomp Wrote:
Beastie Wrote:
Grough article is very good. If we'd had the balls to vote yes in 2014 this would not be an issue.
Too true, we probably wouldn't be able to afford a helicopter at all


Aye cause the Brits are so utterly useless that despite having produced some of the best mountaineers in the world, have a world class MR system of volunteers and having more resources than most countries in Europe, we would still be unable to pay our way and like all Unionists, are totally dependent on subsidy.

Your post the ultimate expression of parochial, nationalist and small-minded British nationalism.

Just my thoughts of course :-)
Dunwerkin


Posts: 21
Joined: Nov 2010
Last Visited: 11:01
9th Nov 2018
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 22.33hrs on Sat 3 Nov 18
Too true, we probably wouldn't be able to afford a helicopter at all

Ahh- the Scots “ cringe” is alive and well....
WickRatson


Posts: 16
Joined: Nov 2017
Last Visited: 17:42
29th Jan 2019
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 12.11hrs on Sun 4 Nov 18
SnowmanDave Wrote:
Just to add:-



OK the previous RAF SAR was set up only to help/retrieve downed RAF pilots etc....NOTHING to do with civilians!...& your excuse is???..as you were supposed to retrain "continuity" of full service that was carried out!!!

---That was not a fall, I intended to do that!---



Edited 3 times. Last edit at 10.13hrs Sat 3 Nov 18 by SnowmanDave.


It was always going to happen. RAF Crews being on call 24/7 would always prefer to actually do somthing, gain more experience, because let's face it the MOD was paying them anyway. You only have a increase in maint and fuel. I bet fuel will be the big issue. I'm not sure what Inverness airport charges but I can imagine it being in the region of £0.80 to £1.30. The MOD has the benefit of less tax to pay, and bulk buying prices, last I heard it was less than 10p per litre of F34/Jet-A1.

This was always going to happen! And I'm calling it now... No insurance no pick up!
Beastie


Posts: 128
Joined: Dec 2013
Last Visited: 09:19
17th May 2020
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 13.29hrs on Sun 4 Nov 18
I've started a topic in the bothy for the political side of this as I feel it isn't really useful in here & I shouldn't have raised it here, I was just angry at the time.

[www.winterhighland.info]
alan


Posts: 10745
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 18:09
7th Mar 2021
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: SAR helicopters being told to not help MRT in certain conditions.
Date Posted: 14.20hrs on Sun 4 Nov 18
For those arguing that insurance for rescue is the way forward (leaving aside political and economic arguments about the impacts of that) where is the line drawn?

Given in the past mountain rescue teams, even ski patrol, SAR helicopters have been used to deal with remote and high level road traffic accidents.

Sorry sir, you slipped on ice in Tomintoul going to buy a loaf of bread, sorry you can't have an ambulance you are above 1000ft in wintry conditions without mountaineering insurance or a mountain guide as you don't have a valid mountain leader qualification?

We either have a free at point of need system for ambulances and medical evacuations whatever the circumstances or we don't.

However, volunteer mountain rescue teams are being made to expend more effort and expose themselves to greater risks to save private helicopter operators money. It was always going to get like this under a privately operated SAR fleet.
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