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LBRodders


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 13.33hrs on Thu 14 Mar 19
*bbc article update with a bit more detail.

It seems they were 'experienced', knew the conditions and understood the route.

They just went for it regardless, and unfortunately paid the price.

A few weeks earlier they would have been up and down in time for a haggis supper and a pint of brewdog in spoons.

A warning for us all.








jabuzzard


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 16.55hrs on Fri 15 Mar 19
Further update on the BBC

Quote:

Paul Boggis, a mountaineering instructor, was among climbers in the area who helped to carry the climbers from the scene of the accident.

...

Mr Boggis did not go with his clients to the slope beneath the gully for fear of further avalanches, and instead went for where a group of people had gathered around a casualty below the slope.

He told BBC Scotland: "We asked if we could help and we were asked if we could help with that casualty.

"The others had transceivers (emergency locator beacons), we didn't have transceivers, and they headed for the snow slope in the firing line of Number 5 Gully.


What the hell was a mountaineering instructor doing out in those conditions with clients *WITHOUT* transceivers. If people are not going to be responsible then its time being irresponsible was made illegal.

alan


Posts: 10750
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Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 18.16hrs on Fri 15 Mar 19
jabuzzard Wrote:


What the hell was a mountaineering instructor doing out in those conditions with clients *WITHOUT* transceivers. If people are not going to be responsible then its time being irresponsible was made illegal.


You can't possibly know what the instructor was doing, let alone the elevation / aspects and orientation in play. Even amongst backcountry skiers who would always have a transceiver for ski trips, of those who cross over into winter / ice / mixed climbing the majority would not take it climbing.

Indeed an argument goes that if an approach to a crag warrants a transceiver, you shouldn't be making that approach in the first place. Strapping a transceiver on doesn't make someone responsible.
paraffin


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 19.41hrs on Fri 15 Mar 19
Alan,
Yours is an excellent response. As a winter mountaineer with over 40 years experience and now a backcountry skier I can fully agreed with what you have said.

I was holding back on commenting on this thread because of the tragic circumstances. However the likes of Jabuzzards comments do not help. Any decent hillgoer on witnessing an accident would wish to offer their assistance only if it were safe to do so. Rule No.1 of Mountain First Aid - ONLY If it is safe to do so.

If it turns out Jabuzzard neede assistance, I am sure we would all make an exception to Rule No.1. ;-)
phatstanley


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 07.52hrs on Sat 16 Mar 19
assuming it was the same intructor i had read a brief interview with, he and his group had curtailed their plans for the day due to the forecast and conditions underfoot.
my guess would be that he didn't plan on going into the "firing line" of potential avalanche.
Paul Boggis


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 12.00hrs on Sat 16 Mar 19
For the record, my clients and I were in a safe place the whole time and we had always planned to be, so there was no need for transceivers. The BBC have mis-quoted, been out of context, fabricated their own words around mine and failed to deliver on their promise to promote the avalanche awareness message. Here is the piece I wrote in response to the tragedy:

bit.ly/2CjtlQ7
split


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 21.36hrs on Sun 17 Mar 19
I wonder if jabbers has ever heard of risk homeostasis.
1873Chris


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 15.48hrs on Mon 18 Mar 19
Paul Boggis Wrote:
For the record, my clients and I were in a safe place the whole time and we had always planned to be, so there was no need for transceivers. The BBC have mis-quoted, been out of context, fabricated their own words around mine and failed to deliver on their promise to promote the avalanche awareness message. Here is the piece I wrote in response to the tragedy:

bit.ly/2CjtlQ7


Not like the BBC to misquote/fabricate things to make the story what they want.

Really hope that there are learnings from this tragedy and thoughts go out to the families

Serious respect for everyone involved in the rescue effort they really do show that not all heroes wear capes
split


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 16.13hrs on Mon 18 Mar 19
paul, sorry about Jabbers, he believes anything he reads, then pretends to be a leading authority on whatever subject on the grounds of minimal information.


jabuzzard


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 17.16hrs on Mon 18 Mar 19
Paul Boggis Wrote:
For the record, my clients and I were in a safe place the whole time and we had always planned to be, so there was no need for transceivers.


Avalanche gear is insurance; nobody (well hopefully at least) plans to be avalanched.

However if you are near enough to provide assistance, you are near enough for the weather to close in, to get a bit lost, put yourself in the firing line by mistake and then get avalanched. That is why in my view your actions where reckless. Planning to be in safe areas is insufficient because shit happens™ no matter how prepared or knowledgeable you are.

I don't plan to be in a car crash, but I still wear my seat belt for all journeys no matter how short or safe I think they might be. Carrying/wearing avalanche gear should be the same in my opinion. I practice what I preach and won't even go of the side of the piste without wearing/carrying the gear.

You are welcome to take a different view point, that's your right in a free and democratic society. However I am also entitled to take the view point I do and it is not an unreasonable one. The gear is no longer expensive in real terms. It costs about the same as it did 20 years ago, but with 20 years of inflation in the meantime.

Finally to be in No. 5 Gully last Monday was nothing short of moronic. If we continue not to call out climbers and skiers who die engaging in these idiotic actions and pretend it was just an unfortunate accident rather than the result of monumentally bad decision making, the longer it will take for people to get the message to respect the mountains and more people will die needlessly.
split


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 17.19hrs on Mon 18 Mar 19
jabbers, you sound ridiculous.
the man is a professional guide.
growwild


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 21.42hrs on Mon 18 Mar 19
"Finally to be in No. 5 Gully last Monday was nothing short of moronic. If we continue not to call out climbers and skiers who die engaging in these idiotic actions and pretend it was just an unfortunate accident rather than the result of monumentally bad decision making, the longer it will take for people to get the message to respect the mountains and more people will die needlessly."

That's about it there, anyone disagreeing with that is a twat....

If this was folk out in a loch or river swimming the media would be full of warnings and more or less condemnation fae the media on the sly too. Any articles in the media calling these guys out for being selfish, ignoring all the warnings and risking others lives? Same with sailors, some think they are in a class tae their own too.....

I don't think all cars need roll cages and full on fire suppression but I do think seat belt cutters and hammers for putting in car windows should be in all cars....

[www.chamonix.net]

No mention of transceivers but enforcment for something if which was a business would be shut doon long ago by HSE and the like is well due in Scotland or if they know more than professional advice/warnings, they must be able tae rescue themselves better then the professionals too.. They could have been ower getting that wee dug instead of fecking about over west risking lives for people that knew better than them!


1873Chris


Guest
Re: Ben Nevis Avalanche
Date Posted: 16.26hrs on Tue 19 Mar 19
jabuzzard Wrote:


I don't plan to be in a car crash, but I still wear my seat belt for all journeys no matter how short or safe I think they might be. Carrying/wearing avalanche gear should be the same in my opinion. I practice what I preach and won't even go of the side of the piste without wearing/carrying the gear.



Do you also wear a crash helmet when you are driving?

I would say that being skilled in navigation, having a good knowledge of the avalanche report and the local area are more important than having a transceiver.

How do you know the guide wasn't training his clients on a completely safe aspect with no intention of going near any aspect that would be prone to avalanche and therefore as the experienced guide stated, no need to carry transceivers?

I understand it's best practice to wear one and i always will even on a day skiing piste as its now auto-pilot for me to have on and in my inside pocket whenever i ski but to say the guides actions are reckless as they weren't wearing them is ridiculous when you have no idea of the full story


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