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flugeryl


Posts: 2307
Joined: Oct 2004
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4th Mar 2020
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Snow making
Date Posted: 19.24hrs on Sun 8 Jan 06
All I understand about snowmaking is that it doesn't come from god but a god-like manager of the ski resort. I have read snippets regarding type of equipment and being able to cover larger areas on cold dry days, allowing for greater chance of snowsports, money, profit, wages...etc Whats the story here? Why only Lecht & Glenshee? Why only green runs? Just why?
timstirling


Posts: 520
Joined: Feb 2003
Last Visited: 01:20
12th Sep 2016
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 19.31hrs on Sun 8 Jan 06
it is expensive, especially if it is destined to melt as is often the case in scotland.
It uses a lot of water, thus requireing a water reserve.
It uses a lot of electricity= expense.
It doesn't work well when it is windy
It doesn't work well near freezing or above
It doesn't work well in high humidity like scotland has.
None of the ski resorts have any spare capital to throw at it.

Saying that, there could have been good skiing available for several weeks if they had had a good system in place.
growwild


Posts: 3504
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 19.22hrs on Mon 9 Jan 06
Yip it is expensive,, but i hope the resorts are not left alone in the development, of what i'm sure could be a major boost for the resorts and everything associated with them, tourism, employment, health. Major thing's that snowmaking could affect in the long term..

Yip some guns wont make snow too good when its to windy, fans guns wont work blowing against the wind, so they need to be turned round to run downwind, the guns(eg.hkd) high up on poles wont work too well high up,but they can be installed so that they can be lowered or raised easy.Some air water guns do fine in windy conditions and these are also the best guns for marginal conditions, the efficiency of this type of gun can also increase when they are blown across the wind..

Below is the temperature and humidity needed for a snowgun that was desidned in Australia to start making snow...When the them temps are close to 0 and above more air is needed, which in turn lowers the efficiency.

+8c and 5% Relative Humidity(RH)
+7c and 8% RH
+6c and 12%-15%RH
+5c and 25%RH
+4c and 35%RH
+3c and 45%RH
+2c and 55%RH
+1c and 65%RH
0c and 72%RH
-1c and 80%RH
-2c and 90%RH
-3c and any RH

twin_tipper


Posts: 158
Joined: Mar 2003
Last Visited: 11:26
8th Jul 2014
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 22.14hrs on Mon 9 Jan 06
If we're ever going to see snowmaking impemented on a viable scale there going to have to be a run of good winters to fund it. Either that or Roman Abramovich to take an interest in scottish skiing. In the lap of the gods really
alan


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30th Oct 2020
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 22.41hrs on Mon 9 Jan 06
weak points, or a system or large enough scale to open a good portion of the mountain in one go, to get the critical mass of lifts and terrain needed to get sufficient people coming to make it pay.

However, the view that limited snow making on a just a few high level runs wouldn't be viable to CML because it wouldn't give CairnGorm anything they couldn't offer most of the time in the Ptarmigan Bowl does look questionable when we get these dry cold spells co-inciding with major holidays. With intelligent thoughtful use, a limited snow making system could have a viable and constructive role to play, it would certainly have allowed snowsports to continue in the Top Basin this past 3 weeks, and that over Christmas would have been a good boost.

Certainly it would need careful use and planning of use, but I doubt the Lecht would have been making snow recently if it wasn't paying, and it's worth remembering the Lechts system is over 12years old, and snow making has advanced massively in just the last couple of years, never mind the last 12. The difference in efficiency and operating range of a modern high pressure automated system compared to the Lecht's completely manual system is very substantial.
flugeryl


Posts: 2307
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4th Mar 2020
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 08.26hrs on Tue 10 Jan 06
So in summary only the economics of this prevent it. Are there not enough buisnesses and goverment in scotland to support this? Snowsports do provide great method of exercise and health, and health of our nation seems to be a major priority of this executive.

A School kid who learns to ski or board at school will keep this going in later life improving their health and reducing their reliability on healthcare (apart from the odd orthopaedic appointment.)
PeterS


Posts: 963
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30th Oct 2020
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.31hrs on Tue 10 Jan 06
I wonder if there would be any advantage in making snow in batch form, instead of pumping water to the point of use and waiting for sufficiently low temperature, humidty and wind strength to make snow ?

Would it for example be economical to manufacture snow or some form of aerated crushed ice, in sufficient quanties in a controlled environment and then move it from there to the point of use ? The Lecht or Glenshee car parks might lend themselves to such a possibility.

Any refridgeration engineers out there ?
alan


Posts: 10711
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30th Oct 2020
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 00.43hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06
It looks as if awaytouring is doing rather well in the most days lift league, as the Robin Tow has now notched up 30days of operation this season! Of those the last 16 have been consecutive days entirely thanks to snowmaking.

The Ptarmigan Tow on CairnGorm has notched up 11 open days, its last day of operation being the 14th of Dec as the final Dec thaw period took its toll. Ever since we've been in the situation where just a bit more snow would allow it to run again, and theres been some work with piste bashers and a couple of attempts to open it, but to no avail. Yes there has been some fluctuations in temperature in that time, but on the whole there has been little real change in cover for better or worse, as witnessed in the last two weeks by the Robin Tow at the Lecht.

So in terms of the viability of snowmaking systems, a system in the Top Basin would have if operated in the early cold spell and to top as required since, would probably have seen the Top Basin, Ptarmigan Bowl at least, through the entire period since the Ptarmigan Tow shut on the 14th of Dec. That would have enabled CML to offer 28days, 4 full weeks of snowsports that they have not been able to offer.

That's surely not to be sniffed at, esp over a holiday period. Perhaps the question is now not whether the Ski Areas can afford to install snowmaking, but whether they can afford not to?
Olderalan


Guest
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 08.12hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06

I agree entirely. A snowmaking system in Top Basin at Cairngorm has to be a priority. Does anyone know if such a system has been costed?. Would the installation of waterpipes be permitted? Would these need to be underground?
Regards
Olderalan
timstirling


Posts: 520
Joined: Feb 2003
Last Visited: 01:20
12th Sep 2016
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 10.57hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06
The fact is both Glenshee and the Lecht have been making a bit of cash (or at least combating the expenses) while Cairngorm hasn't, and the runs at the Shee and the lecth are very low and yet have survived all the milder interludes. Even the storm on tuesday didn't change things much at all even down at 2200ft. Snowmaking at the top of Gorm in certain situations can make a lot of difference.

spewing out lots of heavy wet artifical snow whenever it is cold is going to more or less gurantee skiing potential on the Ptarmigan.

Also, has there been any research into consolidating the snowpack when the snow does arrive. I heard in some place they insert water (and unfortunaetly someitmes various chemicals), into the snow at high pressure when it is cold and use pist bashers at the same time to crush the snow down- the snow lower down compacts and consolidates into near-ice like consistency which helps it survive the mild spells a lot better.
tom


Posts: 155
Joined: Aug 2003
Last Visited: 10:57
14th Nov 2013
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 11.51hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06
i am surprised that people think the top baisn would be best for snowmaking at cairngorm,i would have thought the more sheltered area at the sheiling would be more suitable , its higher than both the lecht and glenshees existing snowcannons,it is shelterd, it would be a lot easier to get water here ,the ground is much softer to bury undergound pipes in .tall snowmaking guns would be less intrusive and it would provide snow to patch up the weak links ie the gunbarrel , the bottom of the zig zags and white lady.
After seeing again in France at christmas how effective snowmaking is, it surely must be starting to be considered-if only to give the impression that the cml is serious -it is the main part of many euopean resorts marketing what snow making is available,i wouldnt think many people would book a ski holday if the resort had no snowmaking?
JohnB


Posts: 405
Joined: Jul 2004
Last Visited: 20:20
17th Mar 2019
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.38hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06
Quote:
The fact is both Glenshee and the Lecht have been making a bit of cash (or at least combating the expenses) while Cairngorm hasn't, and the runs at the Shee and the lecth are very low and yet have survived all the milder interludes. Even the storm on tuesday didn't change things much at all even down at 2200ft. Snowmaking at the top of Gorm in certain situations can make a lot of difference.


But Cairngorm has been making cash through tourist trips on the train, they don't need snowsports.
timstirling


Posts: 520
Joined: Feb 2003
Last Visited: 01:20
12th Sep 2016
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.53hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06
true...
timstirling


Posts: 520
Joined: Feb 2003
Last Visited: 01:20
12th Sep 2016
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.57hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06
It would be nice to think that in 5 years time most of the ski resorts have some kind of real snow making system, with the likes of cairngorm churning out snow as much as possible building the base, stock piling snow, patches the gaps.

Not only has snow making system improved in the last 10 years, but so has the forecasting accuracies, so not only would snow be easier and cheaper to make but by analasing the forecast models a better predication can be made oof the future weather in order to decide if it makes sense to make any snow (if in 4 days time a deep SW is forecast nad snowmaking wouldn't make any difference to the available terrain then there would be no need to make snow).


dhorsley


Posts: 1665
Joined: Oct 2003
Last Visited: 14:25
19th Jun 2020
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 13.18hrs on Thu 12 Jan 06
In five years time I can see the messages on here. Everyone will be complaining cos for the last three days it was -7 on Cairngorm, but they weren't making snow (and the forecast SWly wasn't as mild and wet as expected). winking smiley
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