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Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 15.58hrs on Tue 27 Dec 11
Nelbert Wrote:
doofdoofdoof Wrote:
I have no strong opinion one way or the other to be honest but the data provided above is hardly dense and scholarly or difficult to understand. If it means nothing to you then you're either dense as man made snow (apparently very, this thread suggests) or wilfully remaining ignorant. Either of which are bad things.

No need to fire insults mate. If that's all you've got to say in response then don't bother. I'm far from dense, or ignorant, and in that post yes I was having a go at what I see are Alan's blinkered attitude on the subject, but you will see I was also praising his optimism too

That stuff is as dry and dull as it comes, but I still read it, as I did the first time it got posted. It means nothing to me because it is about the viability a tree lined run down to Glenmore, which whether viable through 1,600,000 calculations on a spreadsheet or not simply isn't going to happen in THE REAL WORLD.

Unless some skiier, who likes Cairngorm, wins the Euromillions to the same tune as those fattys from Largs.


In the fifties, some people had the vision to build a road and then a chair up the White-lady - they were regarded as eccentric fools.
A few decades later, some more people spent reportedly up to £30m on a funicular to replace the chair, with a much less robust business plan than one for snow-making. Never say never. It's all about public pressure, and pushing the right buttons to the right people at the right time.

cammyammy


Posts: 1362
Joined: Jul 2010
Last Visited: 21:43
8th Dec 2014
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 16.25hrs on Tue 27 Dec 11
This coming week could be Snow Making's time to shine.
Olderalan


Posts: 1510
Joined: Feb 2006
Last Visited: 15:23
7th Apr 2019
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 16.50hrs on Tue 27 Dec 11
Hipennine Wrote:
Nelbert Wrote:
doofdoofdoof Wrote:
I have no strong opinion one way or the other to be honest but the data provided above is hardly dense and scholarly or difficult to understand. If it means nothing to you then you're either dense as man made snow (apparently very, this thread suggests) or wilfully remaining ignorant. Either of which are bad things.

No need to fire insults mate. If that's all you've got to say in response then don't bother. I'm far from dense, or ignorant, and in that post yes I was having a go at what I see are Alan's blinkered attitude on the subject, but you will see I was also praising his optimism too

That stuff is as dry and dull as it comes, but I still read it, as I did the first time it got posted. It means nothing to me because it is about the viability a tree lined run down to Glenmore, which whether viable through 1,600,000 calculations on a spreadsheet or not simply isn't going to happen in THE REAL WORLD.

Unless some skiier, who likes Cairngorm, wins the Euromillions to the same tune as those fattys from Largs.


In the fifties, some people had the vision to build a road and then a chair up the White-lady - they were regarded as eccentric fools.
A few decades later, some more people spent reportedly up to £30m on a funicular to replace the chair, with a much less robust business plan than one for snow-making. Never say never. It's all about public pressure, and pushing the right buttons to the right people at the right time.


Well said.The work done by Jamie, Alan and others is all adding to the body of knowledge. Trials with the new cannons at Cairngorm and Glencoe will add to what is already known. In my view, these are all good things that may lead to snowmaking having a more prominent future role in Scottish Snowsports.

Kind regards

Olderalan
Nelbert


Posts: 281
Joined: Oct 2009
Last Visited: 16:26
23rd Aug 2015
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 17.10hrs on Tue 27 Dec 11
Sure thing Hippenine I completely accept that. And without them and the glencoe pioneers we wouldn't be where we are with Scottish Snowsports today.

But unfortunately we are living in completely different, far more cynical times. Where big business and profit rules completely, where you can fire off to snowy alps for a weekend, where we are in the worst economic times since the twenties. Who's going to lend on such ventures? There are no Russian billionaires or Arab sheikhs wanting to pour cash into a scottish ski resort unfortunately.
Nelbert


Posts: 281
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Last Visited: 16:26
23rd Aug 2015
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 18.03hrs on Tue 27 Dec 11
alan Wrote:
I'm sorry but posting that page of data, no doubt representing someone's well intentioned hard work, means nothing to me or most others, including those that have the power to do something about it.


Data and evidence that show a relatively modest snow making system can provide for an average of over 100 days of skiing to the Daylodge via the Carpark Run per season on CairnGorm does mean something to the company with the power to do something about it, otherwise there would not be a state of the art Techno Alpin T40 sitting at the top of the Carpark T-bar.


You are moving the goalposts. That data you posted is principally about a grandiose pie in the sky tree lined snow made run right down the mountain into glenmore. I have already stated on the last page that a few fan guns maintaining key links is the best we will do, and that I am fully behind this realistic scheme

You are in effect now agreeing with me.


tmac_4_


Posts: 6
Joined: Feb 2010
Last Visited: 20:05
29th Sep 2013
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 21.58hrs on Tue 27 Dec 11
From Glencoe facebook

"temperature hasn't been low enough recently to get the snow cannon running and the next 2 days look like being too windy to get anyone on the hill. It will be running as soon as wind calms and temperature drops to build a base at the bottom of the plateau run."

Hopefully they get a lot of the natural stuff also but this will patch up anything that is needed.

It really would be interesting had they switched it on before the thaw and found out how much was required to keep the tow tracks complete. For example are these the points on the tow tracks that usually get stripped bare and is that because they are prone to scouring from the wind? Or something else? So when the snow is made, which is apparently denser, would it be likely the tracks would be still complete, as the snow is less likely to be blown away?

The Glenmore run does sound fantastic but I would prefer to see the tow tracks being kept going as long as possible, as that is often what stops play.



Hope they get open for Friday and will the winds forecast on the weekend heavily effect uplift?



Edited 3 times. Last edit at 22.05hrs Tue 27 Dec 11 by tmac_4_.
Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 08.50hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
Nelbert Wrote:
Sure thing Hippenine I completely accept that. And without them and the glencoe pioneers we wouldn't be where we are with Scottish Snowsports today.

But unfortunately we are living in completely different, far more cynical times. Where big business and profit rules completely, where you can fire off to snowy alps for a weekend, where we are in the worst economic times since the twenties. Who's going to lend on such ventures? There are no Russian billionaires or Arab sheikhs wanting to pour cash into a scottish ski resort unfortunately.


The current investment climate is nothing compared to the sixties.

Every type of business has investment plans on hold at the moment, but that shgouldn't stop preparation, or have you given up hope ?
geeo


Posts: 426
Joined: Sep 2006
Last Visited: 20:04
7th Feb 2019
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 09.27hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
Quote:
Because there is still snow in the Coire Cas Gunbarrel, we know that the energy from the thaw melted out all the snow it could from the Gunbarrel. Thus if more snow had been added prior to the thaw, there would still be more snow in the Gunbarrel than there is now.


haha thanks for the physics lesson but it's not needed, didn't you learn about proportion, as only a proportion of the man made snow would have survived it would have melted along with the real snow perhaps a few % slower given it's uber structure so sure there would be more than there was if no snow was made but you still wouldn't be skiing the cas this week.

it's quite fitting missing the proportion as it's what a LOT of posters on here lack in their views, why do you attack peoply who broadly support the snowmaking view but dont have a nazi like view of it's usefulness in dire times of a thaw like this, i fully support snow making being trialled if you actually read the post instead of getting your knickers all twisted when someone disagrees with you you might see that and wish more could be installed but im also realistic about the state of affairs the centres have to face, something which you Alan & others gloss over.

As for Jamie's 'study' everything he has wrote may well be true in a perfect world where there's no wind and trees are planted at full size but it doesn't alter the fact that sometimes snow making in scotland is pointless, again the centres have to work within their resources or sure they could all go out and buy 20 ide snowmakers and we could ski all year
geeo


Posts: 426
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Last Visited: 20:04
7th Feb 2019
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 09.30hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
in fact i think i will start a campaign for year round skiing on cairngorm, it's now technically possible so why not back that, it should only cost a few million they probably have that stashed under the daylodge anyway as they had 2 good seasons... then your closed system would be buggered and helen could get as many consecutive months on snow as she liked
alan


Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 17:02
27th Mar 2024
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.08hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
haha thanks for the physics lesson but it's not needed, didn't you learn about proportion, as only a proportion of the man made snow would have survived it would have melted along with the real snow perhaps a few % slower given it's uber structure so sure there would be more than there was if no snow was made but you still wouldn't be skiing the cas this week.


Geeo, you are wrong, either because you haven't understood the point or because you are choosing to deliberately misrepresent and mislead people.

The combined elements of the thaw provide a certain amount of energy for melting snow, in the case of the Cas Run the total melt was not limited by availability of snow to melt (ie no snow left), but by the energy available (ie not all snow melted and snow remains on the Cas). Therefor if X snow remains in the Gunbarrel now, but you had added X by snow making the volume of snow currently in the Gunbarrel would be 2X.

It's worth pointing out that unlike a big whale of snow sitting on an open hillside, gully storage such as the Gunbarrel offers significant protection to the snow. As a whale gets larger the surface area on the top and sides increases, but in a deep gully doubling the snow depth only causes a very modest increase in the area of the exposed surface.


alan


Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 17:02
27th Mar 2024
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.27hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
im also realistic about the state of affairs the centres have to face, something which you Alan & others gloss over.


The Strategic Review of Scottish Snowsports highlighted that the day to day, hand to mouth existence that the companies lead, devoid of long term strategic planning reinforces the state of financial affairs you mention.

It is a chicken and egg situation, but the cycle needs to be broken and investment made. Otherwise we will be very lucky to avoid a further and wider retreat in uplift, esp where uplift provision is provided by old auto stacking Pomas.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12.34hrs Wed 28 Dec 11 by alan.
Doug_Bryce


Posts: 1373
Joined: Jan 2003
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.46hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
A few decades later, some more people spent reportedly up to £30m on a funicular to replace the chair, with a much less robust business plan than one for snow-making.


^ ironically the last million pound investment on Cairngorm (funicular) almost bankrupted them. And is the root cause of most modern day moans.

Those who proclaim that snowmaking is certainly the savior of Scottish skiing (if only the resorts would listen to them) are just as blinkered as those who claim it will never work.

Personally I believe it may be possible to make snow in Scotlands climate. However I have still to hear answers to the following issues...

- Wind Speed. The average wind speed above 2000ft is 30-35mph. We ski on drifted snow in Scotland. There is no doubt this will have a big effect.
- Water Supply. Making a pumped & freeze proof large reservoir in a mountain environment becomes an expensive civil engineering challenge. When it is cold enough to make snow the natural mountain streams are frozen (something which has limited the scale of snowmaking in Scotland at Lecht and Glenshee).
- Lift pass price. Places with large scale snowmaking in marginal climates, such as east coast USA and Australia, have some of the most expensive lift passes.
- Operating cost. It costs approx 2 euros to make a cubic metre of snow.
- Environmental issues.
- Initial investment. Where does the money come from ? And could it be better spent on other projects ?

I am open minded about snowmaking. However the case in Scotland is not as clear cut as some make out even if it is technically viable to make snow. As ever with web forums the person who shouts loudest is heard most often.

The small scale Techno Alpin trial at Cairngorm & Glencoe will be interesting to watch a real world 'proof of principal'. However people need to be realistic with their expectations. To quote colins blog 'its not a magic wand'. Even if the trial is a roaring success the simple fact is that none of our 5 resorts are in a position where they could dream to invest £1 million+ in a multi cannon snowmaking system that would actually be capable of manufacturing meaningful volumes.

But hey - don't let reality interfere with the debate winking smiley

Hopefully the real snow returns soon!

Doug.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12.48hrs Wed 28 Dec 11 by Doug_Bryce.
alan


Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
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27th Mar 2024
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Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 13.20hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
In Australia the investment in snow making is regarded as having saved the industry from collapse - it has also allowed the industry to continue to be able to invest and raise capital for such investment.

"Without snowmaking Thredbo and many other Australian resort wouldn’t even be on the map anymore. It’s an amazing thing and the results speak for themselves“, Thredbo Mountain Manager Werner Siegenthaler.

Snowmaking contributes to the lift pass, but it is not the sole reason behind the high lift prices in the places you mention. Lift pass prices are very high across the US and Canada and certainly not just in marginal climate areas.

CML did not have a £30million debt.

The Funicular project was lead by HIE, the Funicular project was developed by HIE, it was financed by HIE, it was ALWAYS owned by HIE. HIE's objective was to kick start redevelopment of Aviemore and the surrounding area with a large and highly visible regeneration project, an objective successfully made, though current revenue extraction from CML could undermine the medium and longer term benefits.

CML was technically insolvent before the Funicular construction started. We'd almost certainly be in a better place had the old Cairngorm Chairlift Company been liquidated at the close of the 2001 season and had a completely fresh start with CML set up as a brand new company in December when the Funicular opened.
andytb


Posts: 358
Joined: Nov 2008
Last Visited: 10:36
4th May 2018
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 14.14hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
I know not of either dam engineering or volume requirements for snowmaking, but I sure like drawing lines on maps and driving up I've always thought that the big gully beside the road sure looks ripe for damming





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 15.13hrs Wed 28 Dec 11 by andytb.
Nelbert


Posts: 281
Joined: Oct 2009
Last Visited: 16:26
23rd Aug 2015
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 15.08hrs on Wed 28 Dec 11
I see comparisons being made with Australia in several posts.

Their problem was historically a lack of precipitation. Their mountains are generally arid and benign. This brings sunny days at a few degrees and chilly, calm clear nights of a few degrees below. In other words perfect conditions for making snow consistently - enough to build a good base or supplement natural snowfalls. It is cost effective because it will keep the punters rolling in in leaner times, and because its not likely to completely disappear overnight before anyone has even had the chance to ski on it.

I'm sure I don't need to point out the differences between there and Scotland....

So snow making was an ideal solutions for their problems. Fair play to them for going for it. Unfortunately our problems are far more complex, as are the solutions (if any can be found, another 1000 ft on the mountains would be a start!)

To use the Aussies as an example, including that quote from the CEO, is totally misleading. That's a perfect example of twisting the info to suit an agenda and part of the reason why I felt obliged to join the thread in the first place.



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