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growwild


Posts: 3500
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 00.21hrs on Thu 24 Jan 19
Is Mar Lodge the reason for the 'snow making wont work in Scotland' hypothesis?

Good idea, bad planning and gave up too quick.. Big ponds of natural unchlorinated water or enough of that pish oot the mains would have had em going and they would have fooked about with guns, probably upped the capacity for lean times and the other centres would have followed and brought in new ideas etc








alan


Posts: 10707
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 19:17
26th Oct 2020
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 19.25hrs on Sat 2 Feb 19
Down to -7°c at Loch Morlich already. That's 200 hours of air-water snow making possible at Glenmore since the start of 2019!





Edited 1 times. Last edit at 19.26hrs Sat 2 Feb 19 by alan.

Attachments: morlich-2019.02.02.17.jpeg (178kB)  
ML


Posts: 50
Joined: Dec 2018
Last Visited: 08:05
26th Oct 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 20.21hrs on Sat 2 Feb 19
I'm sorry, but what's your point?
I know you are a big fan of the Ciste/Glenmore combination. But this just sounds like kicking at Cairngorm when it isn't needed.



growwild


Posts: 3500
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 20.48hrs on Sat 2 Feb 19
I really don't see that as a dig, just factual shit fae the data he has access tae and the possibilities...

Any numbers for the access at Glencoe, could they extend the sledging down tae the car park ?




alan


Posts: 10707
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 19:17
26th Oct 2020
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 21.56hrs on Sat 2 Feb 19
growwild Wrote:
numbers for the access at Glencoe, could they extend the sledging down tae the car park ?


Around 230 hours for the T40s since New Year, 286hours for Ratnik Sky Giant VI lances with the marginal temperature nozzles. These equate to start up flow rate of 2.7lps vs 1.9lps for a T40 - but the T40 can output much more in colder temperatures.

[edit]

There was a data outage of just under 5 days that may contribute in part to the Glenmore figure being less than the Glencoe base figure for this year to date. Generally the swings in hours of potential snow making around the 1200ft mark is greater at Glencoe than Glenmore.

A factor at Glenmore is the semi-natural tree line already extending to around 1700 ft with sizeable trees and montane shrub above. That can have a difference to an extent that 100m below the treeline could see 40% less ablation in a mild storm than 100m above the treeline.

That has the consequence that while you may be able to make less snow lower down (seasons with prolonged inversion conditions excepted) the snow you do make will suffer less melting for a given a temperature because both rain intensity and wind speed increase with altitude and there is a big jump in ablation rates once above the protective biosphere of a tree lined trail.

With technology beginning to reduce / remove the temperature constraint factor for making the snow, then reducing ablation can take priority over hours of low snow making wet bulb temperatures.

The old rules don't apply anymore, but the laws of physics still do. So on that basis I'd describe snowmaking on the following as:

Carpark Runs: Good.
Daylodge Poma: Bad.
Aonach Bowl: Good.
M2: Very bad.
Lower Ciste: Very good.
Ski Road above Link Road: OK
Below Link Road: Good.
Ski Road just below Treeline: Very good.

When it is by no means certain whether the Funicular has a future - and as I have said before, it should not be fix at any cost, then all the options should be on the table. Ropeway tech has significantly closed the gap between monocable ropeways and the Funicular, while improved information and improved forecasting, never mind the experience with snow drift closures negate some of the reasons for going with the funicular in the first place.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 22.13hrs Sat 2 Feb 19 by alan.

growwild


Posts: 3500
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 23.42hrs on Sat 2 Feb 19
That's a lot more than I'd have thought for this year and more reasons tae get trees planted out west for the future..


Covering the place in snow making and putting in more accommodation would be small change tae the land owners.. Pity the last 'multi' that owned the place was lead tae believe snow making wouldn't work at Glencoe...

Something needs done, installing new chairs and tows aint worth a fook unless there is snow tae make bring in punters.......


dj_colinbell


Posts: 57
Joined: Dec 2009
Last Visited: 12:45
16th Jan 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 15.05hrs on Tue 24 Dec 19
I can see all 5 areas look like they have snowfactories, looks like a fair bit of investment. I hope they prove worth while.

[www.colinbelldj.co.uk]

TroutWrestler


Posts: 159
Joined: Jan 2006
Last Visited: 10:26
9th Oct 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 16.33hrs on Sat 28 Dec 19
Howdy All,

I was at Nevis in 24 December. The flake ice machine was producing, but did not seem to be cranking it out at the same volume as the TechnoAlpin unit at Glencoe.

My understanding is that the single unit TechnoAlpin can produce 100 tonnes per 24 hours, the double (like CGM), 210 tonnes per 24 hours, and the Nevis installation, 155 tonnes per 24 hours.

"The machine is capable of producing up to 155 tonnes of flake ice in just 24 hours and is it capable of producing snow even in the middle of summer."
[www.pressandjournal.co.uk]

If we assume the density of the output to be 500kg/m3, this equates to 200m3 at Glencoe, 310m3 at Nevis and 420m3 at Cairngorm.

Can anyone comment as to how accurate my assumptions/calculations are?

growwild


Posts: 3500
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 18.14hrs on Sat 28 Dec 19
Hmmmm, straight out the pipe that weight per m3 might be half that or even less and could be near double once compacted after a bit.. Litre jug and scales are needed.

BennDavie


Posts: 77
Joined: Jan 2016
Last Visited: 22:40
25th Oct 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 12.47hrs on Sun 29 Dec 19
We need to bear in mind that these machines don't actually produce snow , rather flaked ice, ice has almost the same density 917kg/m3 as water 1000kg/m3.
(I'm no snow expert but i've spread a fair few tons of aggregate in my time)



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 15.43hrs Sun 29 Dec 19 by BennDavie.

BennDavie


Posts: 77
Joined: Jan 2016
Last Visited: 22:40
25th Oct 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 15.38hrs on Sun 29 Dec 19
I just found this too a bit better informed than me,
[www.diva-portal.org]



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 15.44hrs Sun 29 Dec 19 by BennDavie.

TroutWrestler


Posts: 159
Joined: Jan 2006
Last Visited: 10:26
9th Oct 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 17.29hrs on Sun 29 Dec 19
Thanks for that.
The density of the TechnoAlpin output is 450kg/m3, so pretty much a 50% ice, 50% air mixture. The 100 unit puts out 100m3, not 100 tonnes, so a lot less than I thought.

This means if the densities are equivalent, the Nevis installation should be producing 344m3 per 24 hours, as the claimed production is 155 tonnes per 24 hours.

(155000ų.45)ų1000= 344.44

It didn't seem to be producing at that rate when I saw it, as that is about 1m3 every 4 minutes. I am sure that it will take time to get dialled in, but at that rate, AND WITH SUB ZERO TEMPERATURES, Nevis should be able to get their beginner slopes absolutely nailed.

growwild


Posts: 3500
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 18.10hrs on Sun 29 Dec 19
That PDF has the TechnoAlpin producing a density of 450kg/m3. I guess this is at the nozzle and they mention the Snow Magic density is 490kg at the nozzle..

After ignoring the next company mentioned it says in the -

(2.4.2.4 - Overview and comparison)

" As it can be observed, every manufacturer provides snow with different densities. Even though it has been said that there is some correlation between snow density and snow quality, when producing snow for slopes it is known that it will be groomed and packed, acquiring a higher density that normally averages 650 kg/m3."

Snow depth has to play a big part, I've noticed some resorts spread out a bit thin which wont help, neither does the peat they regularly add to the mix..

All the centres now have snow making, I cant see what good it'll do though as it stands. Is the beginner market that large in Scotland to justify splitting the pot so much or should have one or two centres got Government cash to get more than beginners and sledges up ?



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 18.18hrs Sun 29 Dec 19 by growwild.

hollisk


Posts: 16
Joined: Mar 2006
Last Visited: 21:15
12th May 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 23.40hrs on Wed 26 Feb 20
With the consistent low temperatures at the moment isnít this a great opportunity to fire up all the new automated guns at cairngorm to build further depth in high traffic areas?

Canít understand why itís not happening, even overnight? Any ideas?

some frustrated skier


Posts: 236
Joined: Mar 2003
Last Visited: 21:17
26th Oct 2020
Re: Snow making
Date Posted: 18.15hrs on Thu 27 Feb 20
hollisk Wrote:
With the consistent low temperatures at the moment isnít this a great opportunity to fire up all the new automated guns at cairngorm to build further depth in high traffic areas?

Canít understand why itís not happening, even overnight? Any ideas?


Thinking the same. Unless the wind is too strong.

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