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Doug_Bryce


Guest
Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 11.24hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Generally I am very skeptical about snow making in Scotland.

However this new technology looks potentially interesting. Since it allows snow to be made at temperature's well above freezing. Additionally the system doesn't require high pressure cannon's - so operating cost's are alot lower. And perhaps most crucially for Scotland the manufactured snow wouldn't have to be blown onto the slope.

On paper seems to be ideal for Scottish conditions. Assuming, of course, that the technology as good as they claim it is !? The video of them making snow in Africa is quite impressive...

[www.zermatt.ch]

[www.ide-snowmaker.com]

Anyone got a spare million winking smiley




Edited 5 times. Last edit at 11.27hrs Wed 21 Nov 07 by Doug_Bryce.
cmorrison


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 11.36hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Yeah there's a lot of talk about this snowmaker in the Snowmaking thread. Think it is in use in one of the austrian resorts. One of the cool things is that you can install it as a pipe based system or use a slurry spreading system to get the snow down. The place in Austria I believe produces the snow in something like a big hut and then just uses piste bashers to move the snow where it is needed.

The technology is expensive but I wouldn't say it's overly expensive. Probably enough money to build 1/20th of a funicular railway would have provided cover for the whole of cairngorm mountain.


Doug Bryce


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 11.42hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
The first IDE system is getting installed in Zermatt for Autumn 2008.
So its still unproven technology - but will be interesting to watch and see if it works. Seems to have potential for Scotland - as it very different from existing snow making techniques.
HTH


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 11.42hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Is this a giant Slush Puppy.? smiling smiley

EDIT:- The tech details are encouraging. Seems it can tolerate hill-water, and the mid-sized unit can produce 960m^3 per day, with a water supply of 5-6 l/sec. Power consumtion 6.7 kwh per m^3, if water supply is +5C, which I expect Scottish Hill-Water would not exceed in winter.

It sounds like a "spring-snow" maker judging by how the granular snow is separated from the water. I don't think this snow would be liable to blow away after it was put down.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12.26hrs Wed 21 Nov 07 by HTH.
PeterS


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 12.40hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Something like this would suite the Lecht very well where they are already geared up for farming snow.

I've often wondered what the possibility would be of making snow inside a building in controlled conditions and then moving it into position using vehicles.

The Lecht would also seem the best place to offset electricty costs through the installation of a large wind turbine.

Does it have the potential to be the worlds first carbon neutral ski centre ?
growwild


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 14.08hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
I wonder what the cost of a lift ticket would be if a resort had that covering the whole of their slopes..
cmorrison


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 14.18hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
I doubt a lift ticket would be as expensive as you would think. Theres plenty of places in Australia and the states that have almost whole mountain snow creation and their lift tickets are similair in cost to ours.

Look at how many skiing days Glenshee had last year (I'd guess around 20 and even then with hardly any runs open). So thats 20 days, say 500 people per day(more at weekends less during the week), 20 a ticket = 200,000

Snowmaking would enable a season from Early November untill Early May. GLets say 1/3 of the time the place is storm bound that leaves around 100 days of opening - 100 * 500 *20 = 1,000,000

We can assume a similair increase in lessons, food and hire giving much more cash. It is also likely that with snow making there could almost be guranteed snow, meaning folk could book week long breaks and the profile of the place would be raised = more visitors = more cash.

No snowmaking and a couple more bad seasons like last year and Scotland could be left with very few uplifts. Doing nothing is not an option.

Chris
Hipennine


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 14.56hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
I've already posted the following calculation on the Snowmaking Thread about this kit. 1 month on gasoil is now just under 50p per litre trade, so the cost of fuel has gone up nearly 20%

Would anybody like to comment on how many users per day that a 5km by 10m wide run would support ?

"Capital cost of generator circa 15k
Consumption 25l gasoil per hour times 24 hours = 600l per 200tons of snow
Gasoil currently about 42 pence per litre, therefore fuel cost for 200tons = 252
200tonnes = 400cu metres.

So 252 in energy costs gets you a 40m long run, 10m wide, and 1m deep (0.63p per cu m)

Put another way, 5km of runs at 10m wide, covered 10 times per season at 1m deep each time would cost 315000 in gasoil, divided by 28 per day ticket = an additional 11250 day tickets on cairngorm to pay for the fuel for this level of annual snowmaking.

A bigger generator, to supply power to generate up to 2000 cu m per day (as in the biggest IDE machine) would work out at about 1.3l per cu m, so about 15% less.

Is their a business case (assuming the technology does work at Scottish average mountain temperatures) ???
HTH


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 15.08hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Hipennine Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would anybody like to comment on how many users
> per day that a 5km by 10m wide run would support
> ?
>
>
> Is their a business case (assuming the technology
> does work at Scottish average mountain
> temperatures) ???

I don't think it's necessary to generate a complete piste. Cairngorm would benefit immediately, just by being able to maintain known thin patches, such as those linking to mid-station.

Glenshee could benefit similarly, because they are particularly dependent upon snow to link lifts to higher & better-filled runs. - Roadside runs on Lecht must also be candidates.

Given that strategic top-ups could get centres reliably open before Christmas, it could have sound economics.
Andy


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 15.19hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
I think the problem is that Glenshee needs a good season to be able to get the cash for anymore snowmaking and upgrades to facilities (only 35 days skiing last season). the lecht will be paying off the new (ish) base station, not sure how you'd work such a system at nevis or glencoe and cairngorm are not likely to spend much on anything in the coming years, apart from visitor attractions. Good idea but needs someone to stump up the cash...
cmorrison


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 15.19hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Are these things mobile?

Could you stick one on the back of a lorry and share them between the ski resorts? A day a week at each. From a practical perspective it wouldn't really work at Glencoe, Nevis Range or Cairngorms (unless you could pump the snow up to where it's needed) but I dont see why Glenshee and Lecht couldn't share the cost.


growwild


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 15.42hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
cmorrison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Are these things mobile?
>
> Could you stick one on the back of a lorry and
> share them between the ski resorts?
------------------

Anything can be stuck on the back of a truck winking smiley

How much are these things per unit, and how much water are they using?



HTH


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 15.53hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Takes 5.5 litres/sec for the mid-sized unit. - Makes 960 m^3 of snow per day.

I imagine hill-streams could feed it. Don't know cost of machine. - H.
WebCT_Guru


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 16.15hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
The Zermatt one seemingly costs EUR 1.19 million (850K?) and you need to order one a year in advance.

More Info at:
[nieveyalgomas.blogspot.com]



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 16.18hrs Wed 21 Nov 07 by WebCT_Guru.
cmorrison


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 16.36hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
From the Zermatt press release
"The new snow machine, which is produced in Israel, has a delivery period of one year and costs around CHF 2 million. It will be put into operation at the end of September 2008. It will be installed in an extension of the snowmobile garage on Trockener Steg.
The system is not harmful to the environment thanks to its low electricity consumption. The energy it requires for a year is the equivalent to that of one household."

From that I would say Energy costs for a year around 10000 (i think same energy requirements as a house is ambitious!)
Cost of Equipment = 880,000
Annual Maintenance(guess) = 50,000

Number of extra customers required over ten year period to recoup investment

= costs/ price of ticket
= 880000+(10*60000) / 30 = 49,333 customers over 10 years
= 4,933 customers a year extra.

Glenshee had 35 ski days this year. If we assume they could open 100 days with snowmaking then they would only need 49 customers a day to recoup the investment over 10 years.


**************** DISCLAIMER *****************************************
These figures are pure Guesstimates and may not reflect anything near the real world!

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