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Hipennine


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Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 16.57hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
I have no idea where the Zermatt Energy figure comes from. If you go directly to the IDE website it gives you all the figures on the energy required to make 1 cu metre of snow. You can work out the required energy consumption for any given annual snow volume from that, and therefore the cost. that's how I calculated the £315,000 to create 5km x 10mx1m deep ten times per year. I did work out the electrical cost based on an EDF fixed rate domestic tariff, and it was about 10% less than using a gasoil generator. No doubt the ski area current commercial tariffs are slightly less than that. However the scottish areas have restriction on mains electric, available 3 phase, or any mains electricity, etc, so the genny is probably a better bet. Any decent generator manufacturer's website gives you average fuel consumption for a given power output.

Taking HTH's point about using such a machine to "patch" and manage snow at key points I think that is spot on, and that is why I can't understand why people are worrying about getting micro-climate data before considering a wider business plan for this sort of snowmaking. Presumably the temperature never gets above 30C at the Cas Zig-zags apart from the hottest summer days, if at all.
HTH


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 17.08hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Using typical snow gun methods, the local wind/temp conditions near the zigzags would be important, to be sure the manufactured snow could form & lie on the piste as required. - However, the IDE snowmaker is more like farming snow, and probably isn't so sensitive to the detailed climate on zigzags.?

If I was buying one for CML...I'd locate at the top of the Gunbarrel, and have the option to push/piste the snow produced down the gunbarrel, or the zigzags or 105, to keep mid-station access, and M1 or Cas uplift tracks in service.
growwild


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 17.11hrs on Wed 21 Nov 07
Some resorts usulay have to close early in the season through lack of customers not snow..

Installing a system like this so that all year round snowsports on the mountains is in my opinon a no goer, same as installing snowflex or permasnow over every run would be a no goer, if this system is viable and would make a return then the money would be in the central belt somewhere, say that drylope at Edinburgh..

I dunno either why their is a need for micro climate data, snowmaking works- and its been proven many times at what temps and humidity is required, but believe it or not people from the resorts have looked into in the past and for our resorts its humidity thats the main problem on the west coast and water and cash , and on the east coast its more water and cash, as they have less of a problem with humidity from what i believe..
alan


Posts: 10750
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 23:28
2nd Dec 2021
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Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 01.39hrs on Thu 22 Nov 07
Quote:
but believe it or not people from the resorts have looked into in the past


Nevis alone have made an effort to look at snowmaking in a quantitative way and have been collecting climate data for the Lower Goose.

Elsewhere there just isn't the data either in spatial or temporal resolution to model different snow making scenarios. Suck it and see isn't really a viable business plan if your having to raise funds externally. Also what system or combinations of systems? That can only be answered by modelling different scenarios, but that can't be done with no data. One or two seasons worth of good intense data is likely to enable us to look back at and re-analyse the existing less extensive data and enable us to go back a few years further using what already exists as a proxy.

Ideally snow depths at various fixed point locations could do with being recorded throughout the winter to provide a proxy for ablation which can be factored into models, as well as tracking the natural input into the runs. Usually this would be done by measuring snow fall, but snowfall has no meaningful relationship to snowdepth on our runs - for example the Cas Gunbarrel can fill from nothing to flat overnight, 2 weeks after it last snowed with snow blowing of the Plateau and it does happen!

All this taken together can allow for detailed model reconstruction of the season under differing scenarios that will provide answers to the above questions. It will also help tell us how much snow do we need to make to keep run A open for X amount of the season etc, this allows us to work out the snow gun intensity required for a given run, the pump, water and electrical capacity that requires. Further we can go forwards with a mild year, average year, cold year and apply various warming scenarios and look at what level of snowmaking intensity we'd require 25 years hence under a high warming scenario - thus the modelling can be done in a way that shows not just that this is viable today, but it will still be viable when this equipment is at the end of it's useful life.

Getting one or two fan guns that can be plugged in at X and Y to make snow for patching is a different ball game and there is little reason not to just do it, and it would be useful to have evidence of how they perform, rather than just abstract virtual modelling from weather data.

An all weather snow factory makes snow at one location, it still has to be got to where it's needed and are we making full use of the snow that we get already?
bushid0


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 13.26hrs on Thu 22 Nov 07
growwild Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Some resorts usulay have to close early in the
> season through lack of customers not snow..
>

No no no growwild

If you build it they will come.

growwild


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 18.49hrs on Thu 22 Nov 07
Alan, i'm not disputing the fact data is needed, but needing micro climate data for lots of points on the hill sounds like the intended route is a plan/costing for a full snowmaking system to be installed, which would never happen through many factors, with cash being the main. I doubt any resort has thrown in loads at the one time with the risks, best to start small and build on it..

The cash spent collecting this data could run into a heafty amount alone with weather stations etc, and would it really be much use, concentrating on a few keys areas would be better for pockets to get it started then maybe expand..

As for measuring snow depths, there could be plenty of ways tae do it.. A simple eyeball in the summer to mark out the lay of the land. Then uses points of reference (fences/markers/towers) during the winter for a rough yin, or get one of these [www.youtube.com] .. I'm pretty sure ye can buy something like it for groomers/piste beastie that measures depths with a live display in the cab, I'm not sure but I was thinking a depth sounder for fishing might work the same and could record the depth, depending how far they penetrate and if they would go through compacted snow...

Quote "An all weather snow factory makes snow at one location, it still has to be got to where it's needed and are we making full use of the snow that we get already?"

Thats the big thing, its a total waste of time looking at snowmaking for a place untill the land there has been modified for the collection of snow, natural and man made, bridges-rock removal- burn that fecking heather and grass it, lots of things could be done and some resorts would get more open for longer without snowmaking and just doing some stuff tae the land, but then are they allowed?

-----

Build wit Bushid0?

A winter snowfactory has awready been bulit a long long time ago, this monster goes by the name these days of Glencoe Mountain Resort, and at the end of the season when everyone else is loading tows half way up Glencoe still has usualy full cover from the bottom of the main basin tae top, yet people still dont come and this is one of the best times tae be up... I know the Snow Park lads have been looking into things up there over the past months/years, I think they are moving their ideas forward and are planning on some shop tae hopefuly help fund some of them.
Hipennine


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 08.58hrs on Fri 23 Nov 07
HTH wrote

"If I was buying one for CML...I'd locate at the top of the Gunbarrel, and have the option to push/piste the snow produced down the gunbarrel, or the zigzags or 105, to keep mid-station access, and M1 or Cas uplift tracks in service. "

Spot on, and it would work now. Therefore the buusiness case is dependent on how many extra days would it allow the Cas and M1 runs/lifts to operate, and what extra revenue would that generate, vs cost of production. Micro climate data is irrelevant.

Growild wrote:

"A winter snowfactory has awready been bulit a long long time ago, this monster goes by the name these days of Glencoe Mountain Resort, and at the end of the season when everyone else is loading tows half way up Glencoe still has usualy full cover from the bottom of the main basin tae top, yet people still dont come and this is one of the best times tae be up."

This really is a big mystery. The sunny spring days last season were tremendous with cracking skiing in the main basin, and round to the flypaper. We got in 1000's of feet sliding on a queue free main basin T bar. There really is something sadly wrong with the marketing of snowsports in Scotland if the centres aren't heaving on days like that. Subjectively, there seemed to be more hang-gliders than skiers/boarders at Glencoe.
cmorrison


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 09.11hrs on Fri 23 Nov 07

Bushid0
"If you build it they will come."


If you build it AND you let them know you built it then they will come.

Two things are needed, advertising and snow (making).


As for glencoe, it has snow forever but it's such a pain in the ass to walk from the access chair to the other chairlift when the stupid t-bar doesnt have snow cover. Even though I only use that tow once during a days boarding (to get the 500 yards up to the main basin) I'm a lazy sod and when I see it is off it puts me off going!

If there was a chairlift to the main basin (or the access lift was extended) it would be much more popular for some April boarding!

Chris
growwild


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 15.54hrs on Fri 23 Nov 07
It is the biggest mystery in the planet, well here anyway Hippenine.. I thimk it all comes down to information, as very few people realise that Glencoe is still loaded late on in the season..

The Snow Park had a few quid tae advertise last year and were going to stick cash towards a bus to cut costs for people getting up there, but with the lower half of the mountain going pretty early it would problay have done more harm, and would have been a waste of cash. The webacam(s) should open a few eyes from now on. And one of the main goals of the Snow Park is the late season and a late opening, and they are pretty good at doing stuff, so we'll se what happens..

Ach, its an awright walk when its sunny Chris, I know its a pain sometimes but there is always the Argo tae get up tae the Cliffy.. But ya never know what will happen up there its still early days for the new owners and the resort is moving pretty fast in terms of investment and ideas...
Mark-uk


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 17.33hrs on Fri 23 Nov 07
the fact is if the people who have the capability to invest in this havent got a passion for snowsports and just for making money they will i believe sway towards more summer sports for the scottish mountains. the potential for snowmaking in scotlands been around for a while, yet look hw far behind other ski resorts scotland are. All schools in england go abroad along with most other english snowsport enthusiasts, Theres no promotion of scottish snowsports and thats down to the owners. No promotion = Not many customers = not much money sad smiley
alan


Posts: 10750
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 23:28
2nd Dec 2021
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 18.48hrs on Fri 23 Nov 07
Quote:
Spot on, and it would work now. Therefore the buusiness case is dependent on how many extra days would it allow the Cas and M1 runs/lifts to operate, and what extra revenue would that generate, vs cost of production. Micro climate data is irrelevant.


With out climate data you can't say how many extra days it would allow the Cas or M1 to open.

Quote:
"If you build it they will come."


Doesn't happen that way. Lack of customers almost always closes Nevis and Glencoe in the spring rather than lack of snow and CairnGorm quite often could go on a bit longer too if the demand was there.

If skiers don't even look to see if there is snow, it doesn't matter if reports are updated 20 times a day and published all over the shot.

As for Glencoe, the walk from Access Chair to Cliffhanger is HALF the length of the Plateau Poma, it's like a 5minute stroll on a good quality path, it also pretty well flat (as anyone trying to board down it winter can tell you!). Interestingly I gather that the % of people being injured goes way down when the Plateau Poma is shut - look at it as a good warm up. Also because of the sheer lazyness of so many, you know if the Plateau Poma is closed, you want have big queues! winking smiley



Edited 2 times. Last edit at 18.50hrs Fri 23 Nov 07 by alan.
snowned


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 19.31hrs on Fri 23 Nov 07
My tupence worth

I have a season ticket at Nevis and go if the weather is good and the tows are running.

The minimum snow that they need to open with tends to be goose tow loading at tower 4(850m) and the summit runs complete. So roughly 300m vertical 90m of blue run and 210m of red.

If they bought into snow making and made the whole of the goose open all the time I donít think it would make me personally more likely to go but some people use this as a bench-mark. What would make a difference is a compete run to the top station of the gondola- be it snow making on Warrens + Alpha / a dendex alpha or maybe one of these all weather snow machines for summer skiing as well.


growwild


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 23.27hrs on Fri 23 Nov 07
How dae ya know the people involved have no passion for snowsports Mark?

If that was true then some of those people wouldn't have invested and we would probaly be one resort down at the moment..

Spending cash on summer sports(bikes) is a great idea, as in theory this should bring in cash right through the year without having something like 5 months or however long they have snow to bring in cash tae cover expenses for the rest of the year..

I'm only guessing but I cant see mountain bikes or any other summer sports that will bring in more cash to a resort than snowsports aslong as the snow keeps falling.. So I guess snowports are the main priority as this brings in the most cash, but ya gotta spend on other things sometimes in business tae free cash fae here and there blah blah..
JB Challoner


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 20.42hrs on Fri 30 Nov 07
Location Location Location
ropetow


Guest
Re: Make snow at 30C ?
Date Posted: 13.39hrs on Sat 1 Dec 07
If you look at the webcams (www.snoweye.com) you can see a lot of the lower resorts have used their snow cannons to make snow on the home runs. Alot of these resorts are around 1000m - looking at the recent pics from cairngorm a strategically placed portable snow gun could make a lot of snow that could complete the Cas and get it running. I think the big issue is the water required to do this.

Does anyone have any experience of the DIY snowmakers you can see on the web ? How much water does it take to make snow ? I've got an old ex-gas board compressor and a 5hp petrol pressure washer - but i dont have a snowgun to use with this.

Does anyone have a gun that i could borrow to try it out ?

Would love to post pics of making snow in the central belt !


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