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alan


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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 09.43hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
New website is fine, it's the old website that's gone AWOL. Maybe their hosts lost patience faster than mine... Scared that I'll come back later to find out the Winterhighland Server is a molten pile on the floor!
Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 10.26hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
Lots of comment on CGL lack of preparation, and comparison to the other centres. However, to be fair, the financial situation of CGL is different to the others. Remember that financially both Glenshee and Glencoe had the "advantage" of going bust a coupla years ago. Whereas their pre-decessors had a mountain of debt, they have started afresh, and additionally have never had the level of overhead associated with CGL (ie land rental to HIE, funicular running costs, etc.).

CGL has a multi-million overdraft, and is supposed to start re-deeming funds to local councils as a result of a previous share issue. Reading the accounts, it seems that BOS is not charging a commercial rate on the overdraft.

If CGL had to pay a commercial rate, and/or the shareholders (local authorities) exercise their right to redeem the shares, there would not seem to be the cash to continue trading. So the limited facilities that are being provided are actually only available because of financial support through us (as council and national tax-payers through the local authority shareholders), and the sympathy of the bank (and therefore us as pension fund holders).

In all honesty, if I was Chief Exec in that situation, I wouldn't spend the cash (assuming the bank would allow more short term borrowing to pay for it) on "getting ready" until I was certain that some cash was going to come in, and I couldn't be certain of that (given recent years snowfall history) until the snow falls and stays on the ground.
roga


Posts: 1123
Joined: Feb 2006
Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 10.41hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
^ You're absolutely correct but the problem is the business model they're pursuing is loosing them trade and further downgrading snowsports infrastructure to the extent that many of us will head pertty much anywhere else given the choice and conditions.

In my opinion this is a very good example of why the best thing for Cairngorm would be if CML went bust. A new company could then take over that was unencumbered by these massive debts and with a bit of imagination and flair reinstate the Gorm as the premier snowsports venue in the UK.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 10.42hrs Thu 10 Jan 08 by roga.
alan


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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 10.53hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
Hipennine, while it's a valid point you make about CML's financial situation, it raises the question if the survival of CML as currently constituted can any longer be in the interests of snowsports or the wider Strath.

There should be 16 lifts operating this Saturday, Glenshee can manage 21 operational lifts with no meaningful on-site out of season trade, while CML gets 150,000 to 180,000 non skiing visitors. If the extra overheads on the Gorm explain this, then the Snowsports are subsidising the Funicular, not the other way around as those advocating the further need for diversification (and contraction of snowsports) believe.
cmorrison


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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 10.59hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
I wonder if there is a little bit of business attitude in this?

In general begginers will pay for lift pass, hire, breakfast, lunch, stuff in the shop, possibly instruction, etc.
= loads of dosh!

In general better skiers will pay for lift pass (or season ticket), maybe lunch and thats it.
= £25


If all your intermediate skiers have already paid for season tickets and have alrady given you their money where is the incentive to get the harder bits open?



This is a bit of a conspiracy theory but it is possible.


Andy28


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9th Mar 2021
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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 11.11hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
telemarker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Andy28 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > if i were to go up at the weekend it would
> look
> > like i would head to glen shee
> >
> > but if cairngorm had the wwp running i would
> be
> > there in a flash
>
> what about the Glas Maol poma? which gives the
> best skiing = off the WWP or Glas Maol -
> discuss!?

i really dont know, everytime in the ciste gulley its been open ive found it dead, ive never been over to glas maol but its always looked far busier






Edited 1 times. Last edit at 11.12hrs Thu 10 Jan 08 by Andy28.
HTH


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20th Feb 2018
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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 11.13hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
Actually, you do raise a good point about obligation to Season Pass Holders. - Perhaps not strictly in the T&C's, but morally at least, they have a duty to provide the best paracticable uplift to those whose money they have willingly take pre-season.?

At least fulfilling the Core Lift Policy should be expected as a minimum.
Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 11.16hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
C Morrison:
"This is a bit of a conspiracy theory but it is possible."

Not a conspiracy, but a perfectly sensible business model. However, it needs expanding to include "how do we extract more £'s from the Intermediate/sesason ticket holders ?" - one way to do that would be differential lift pass pricing - eg beginners only pass, and whole area pass at a premium (oh isn't that what they used to do ?).

The strategy is flawed in that it seems to assume that their is no competition for what is on offer, so they can charge the beginner the premium price. This winter looks like it is going to prove that to be a fatal flaw.

Alan:
"it raises the question if the survival of CML as currently constituted can any longer be in the interests of snowsports or the wider Strath."

You are flippin well right it does !!! They are between a rock and a hard place. As a company, their first duty is to the shareholders. The majority of the shareholders are public bodies, so perhaps it is about time THEY thought about the wider public interest and actually develop a strategy that serves that interest. Is a major lobbying effort to the shareholders the way forward ?
alan


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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 11.19hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
The Ciste side doesn't get that busy all that often when only the Poma is available, because the Poma doesn't adequately serve the natural runs. The Poma is better for the M2 and the Aonach - but that could be easily fixed by taking advantage of natural ledges in the terrain to fence a bynack traverse from just below the top of the WW Chair to give direct access to the full Aonach Bowl and lower M2 from the WW Chair. This also means if the Poma is Split, return to the M2 (and snow permitting on the Daylodge Run) to Coire Cas would still be possible from the lower lift.

The Poma also scares many intermediates away from the best blue terrain on the hill, down the M2 and OverYonder through the Aonach Bowl.
alan


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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 11.21hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
Hipennine, CML is 100% owned by the Cairngorm Recreation Trust, a Charitable trust that exists to enable participation in mountain sports and recreation.
Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 11.40hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
Alan,

I've just looked up the CMT accounts, etc., and also note that Preference Shareholders have waived their right to a vote in CML's affairs. Beggars belief that a publicly owned funding body that is now the majority shareholder in CML has voluntarily waived it's right to control the company, and therefore handed control to a Trust.

However, that shouldn't stop the questions being asked about why this was done, or the accountability of the Trustees in safeguarding the best use of this massive amount of public funding.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 12.44hrs Thu 10 Jan 08 by Hipennine.
alan


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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 12.42hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
The trust has no shareholders. The preference shares are non-voting.
ScottB


Posts: 394
Joined: Jan 2006
Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 14.10hrs on Thu 10 Jan 08
I’ve got to say, I’m becoming increasing agitated with Cairngorm now. With the M1 Poma now down, tomorrow looks like it will be the top tows and the (limping) train, which is an absolute disgrace. As a season ticket holder, I really am beginning to rapidly loose patience with Cairngorm. To have all that snow on the mountain and 3 lifts running is shambolic. I’m a season ticket holder who will likely be driving past Cairngoem (unless something drastic happens soon) to get to Nevis this weekend. That says it all.
WebCT_Guru


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21st Jan 2019
Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 21.28hrs on Sun 27 Jan 08
So what's the record for the Gorm webcams being stuck?

Nearly a week now sad smiley
Olderalan


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7th Apr 2019
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Re: CairnGorm Mtn (Non Conditions Discussion)
Date Posted: 21.53hrs on Sun 27 Jan 08
All 3 of CML's Webcams were updating today. The latest images from around 15.50 are still showing on their website. There seems to be a problem with the link to WH.
No getting away from it though....their webcams have been a very poor show (no pun) for a very long time...over a year. However, perhaps all the money they've chucked at this has finally sorted things out.

Regards
Olderalan
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