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Gorminator


Posts: 667
Joined: Jan 2011
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11th Aug 2019
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 22.50hrs on Sun 26 Feb 17
So....who is he ?

Snowweasel


Posts: 395
Joined: Oct 2006
Last Visited: 11:14
16th Apr 2021
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 09.17hrs on Mon 27 Feb 17
Sorry if this has been already covered, but has there (ever) been an official response to the sane and sensible suggestions put forward by Save the Ciste?
Seems to me that this winter makes the case even more stronger?
But what do I know? I just want to ski in Scotland.

Olderalan


Posts: 1510
Joined: Feb 2006
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7th Apr 2019
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 09.49hrs on Mon 27 Feb 17
mdearman Wrote:
Olderalan Wrote:

When you consider that Natural Assets Investments Ltd, the parent company that owns Cairngorm Mountain Ltd, had a loss of >£5m as shown in the recently released accounts for the 9 months ending 31 December 2015 and that CairnGorm Mountain Ltd had a loss of >£1.2m in the same time period then capital investments, made by the operator, would seem to be as far away as they have ever been.

Kind regards

Olderalan

I've spent some time looking over Natural Assets accounts along with many of its subsidiaries, it is clear that the vast majority of that loss is entirely intentional, presumably in order to avoid tax in the grand scheme.

So whilst I don't think NA is making any investment in uplift any time soon, I don't think the loss at NA Investments level is at all relevant, in fact it tells you that he has abundant funds available.


It's clear from both sets of accounts that one individual is supporting them. It would be my view that we can question the fact that a business that is pivotal to the Strathspey economy should be placed in the hands of an organisation that is dependent for its survival on one individual. That does not seem to be very prudent, to me.
I'd disagree that the loss isn't relevant. Unless the main shareholder and funder is a philanthropist [and there has been no sign of that] then capital investment on Cairn Gorm will have to come from the public purse [unlikely] or from profits [and there aren't any] I'd discount the possibility of borrowing capital as the risk would be too great.
NAIL made a gross profit of just £181,383 from a turnover of £3,483,675....take off the operating expenses of £1,771,451 and the loss was £1,509,881. I'd be interested to read how the operating expenses were entirely intentional as they were responsible for a large part of the net loss.

Kind regards

Olderalan

mdearman


Posts: 242
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 07:28
11th Jan 2019
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 20.32hrs on Mon 27 Feb 17
Gorminator Wrote:
So....who is he ?


David Gorton

[beta.companieshouse.gov.uk]

mdearman


Posts: 242
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 07:28
11th Jan 2019
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 22.58hrs on Mon 27 Feb 17
Olderalan Wrote:
NAIL made a gross profit of just £181,383 from a turnover of £3,483,675....take off the operating expenses of £1,771,451 and the loss was £1,509,881. I'd be interested to read how the operating expenses were entirely intentional as they were responsible for a large part of the net loss.

Kind regards

Olderalan


Well £1.2m of those operating expenses were "Amortization of intangible fixed assets" and "impairment of goodwill" i.e smoke and mirrors. All I can say is in my mind it's clear these guys have a plan and the loss is both tightly controlled and deliberate to offset personal profits made elsewhere,

I would love to see the HIE due diligence that justifies handing over a public asset to a company with huge losses on its books however.

Mike

Olderalan


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7th Apr 2019
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Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 09.11hrs on Tue 28 Feb 17
mdearman Wrote:
Olderalan Wrote:
NAIL made a gross profit of just £181,383 from a turnover of £3,483,675....take off the operating expenses of £1,771,451 and the loss was £1,509,881. I'd be interested to read how the operating expenses were entirely intentional as they were responsible for a large part of the net loss.

Kind regards

Olderalan

Well £1.2m of those operating expenses were "Amortization of intangible fixed assets" and "impairment of goodwill" i.e smoke and mirrors. All I can say is in my mind it's clear these guys have a plan and the loss is both tightly controlled and deliberate to offset personal profits made elsewhere,

I would love to see the HIE due diligence that justifies handing over a public asset to a company with huge losses on its books however.

Mike


Not many people take much interest on the situation at CairnGorm Mountain. It seems that folk have given up commenting just as many have given up going there. Your input is welcomed by me but I do have to point out that you are erroneous in what you say. The operating expenses of £1,771,451 DO NOT include Amortisation of £650,948 or Impairment of £595,092. It is therefore quite clear that the trading profit of £181,383 was all that this business made to pay operating expenses of £1,771,451. That's a big loss from a turnover of £3.48m.
I expect that HIE have [privately] come to regret their decision.

Kind regards

Olderalan

Hipennine


Posts: 1061
Joined: Dec 2005
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 17.14hrs on Wed 1 Mar 17
Olderalan Wrote:


Not many people take much interest on the situation at CairnGorm Mountain. It seems that folk have given up commenting just as many have given up going there. Your input is welcomed by me but I do have to point out that you are erroneous in what you say. The operating expenses of £1,771,451 DO NOT include Amortisation of £650,948 or Impairment of £595,092. It is therefore quite clear that the trading profit of £181,383 was all that this business made to pay operating expenses of £1,771,451. That's a big loss from a turnover of £3.48m.
I expect that HIE have come to regret their decision.

Kind regards

Olderalan


Wading through the various Natural Assets companies accounts it looks like effective ownership and control of the whole group changed in Jan last year. I also note that the group of companies with Natural Retreats in the name (which doesn't include CML, although it still says Natural Retreats on the CML website), have no financial connections with Natural Assets, although they share the same HO address and some directors.

alan


Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 17:02
27th Mar 2024
What's this?What's this?What's this?
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 19.51hrs on Wed 1 Mar 17
Hipennine Wrote:
Wading through the various Natural Assets companies accounts it looks like effective ownership and control of the whole group changed in Jan last year.


As far as I can tell what happened was that the ultimate parent company in the group changed from the UK Ltd Company registered in England - 'Natural Retreats Management Limited' (which has been dissolved) to a US corporation registered in Delaware (doesn't have the statutory public available filing requirements of the UK as far as I can see) - Natural Retreats Management LLC.

alan


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27th Mar 2024
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Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 18.01hrs on Wed 8 Mar 17
Ciste Gully still complete to a bit below the boardwalks on Tuesday, before Wednesday's storm, snow ahd heavy drifting.



There is a hole at the usual prone location, but had the area been open for skiing there would have been more compaction of the snow and an inevitable downwards shift of some snow from grooming and skiers / boarders, so the hole might not have appeared at all.

Of course if there was a small scale run of river hydro scheme in the coire the water flow would be less and erosion of the snow by undercutting significantly reduced.



Edited 1 times. Last edit at 18.03hrs Wed 8 Mar 17 by alan.

Attachments: ciste-2017.03.07.jpeg (224kB)  
some frustrated skier


Posts: 236
Joined: Mar 2003
Last Visited: 21:55
16th Feb 2021
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 21.41hrs on Wed 8 Mar 17
Coat on shoogly peg.

Who were/are the local company who was in the running?

mdearman


Posts: 242
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 07:28
11th Jan 2019
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 22.20hrs on Wed 8 Mar 17
The ski and snowboard school. They were a non profit company that's was doing well but didn't have high enough turnover to be considered by HIE as an operator.

mdearman


Posts: 242
Joined: Jan 2010
Last Visited: 07:28
11th Jan 2019
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 22.23hrs on Wed 8 Mar 17
Not only were they not considered on a technicality, but then NR decided to take instruction in house so they had to shut down.

alan


Posts: 10768
Joined: Nov 1994
Last Visited: 17:02
27th Mar 2024
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Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 18.43hrs on Mon 21 Aug 17
So we now know that the West Wall Chair won't spin any Saturday again.

Today the Ciste Carpark is fenced off as preparations for demolition and removal of the lifts and Ciste Base Station get underway - part of a hastily announced HIE funded £267,000 contract.



This thread is over 9 years old, the West Wall Chairlift has not carried public since spring 2004. The haul rope and last of the carriers were removed from the lift early summer this year. It is clear this has been a long since set agenda.

Back in 2004 the then CEO of CML Bob Kinnaird threatened me and this website with legal action over discussion of the 'core lift policy' and described the idea that it would lead to uplift being removed from the mountain as the stuff of 'fantasists and idiots'.

A good number of people have engaged CML and HIE over the years about Coire na Ciste, People who give a large amount of their time for free, companies that provided information and quotes and/or did research for free to seek to find a way to put Coire na Ciste back at the heart of CairnGorm Mountain were taken for a complete ride as CML / HIE played a long game to simply talk it out until the lifts were beyond shot.

it is now abundantly clear just how disgraceful and duplicitous CML and HIE have been in these dealings. The manor in which HIE and CML have behaved is beyond disgraceful. Yet CML is the organisation that seems to be immune to the financial consequences of it's actions and inactions, while other businesses in Strathspey have not been so fortunate.

Ownership of CairnGorm Mountain should be with the community, that will take time, so possibly the Forestry Commission could serve as interim land owner and manager. It is now clear that HIE's tenure as Landlord of the CairnGorm Estate since it's creation in 1992 has been an absolute disaster for Scottish Snowsports and for 12 month of the year tourism in Strathspey.







Edited 1 times. Last edit at 18.43hrs Mon 21 Aug 17 by alan.

Attachments: blockedroad.jpg (9kB)  
alan


Posts: 10768
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27th Mar 2024
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Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 20.22hrs on Mon 21 Aug 17
Further to the above have had it confirmed that the top four pylons of the Westwall Chairlift were felled today.

CML, HIE and NAIL, here is an other acronym for you - GTF.

some frustrated skier


Posts: 236
Joined: Mar 2003
Last Visited: 21:55
16th Feb 2021
Re: West Wall Chairlift should spin Saturday
Date Posted: 23.46hrs on Mon 21 Aug 17
I very much doubt that this will be reported on Twitter, Facebook or the "behind the scenes" blog of smoke and mirrors. One positive though, the yoga seems to have went down quite well. Not many cakes bought in the process so that will be gas axed soon enough.

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