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Mattun


Posts: 248
Joined: Mar 2006
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 17.26hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
HTH wrote: "but I do know it's quite clear that any vote on Scottish afairs would be voted upon, exclusively by those on the Electoral Role of Scotland. - debate finished on that score."

I'm not so sure that is as cut and dried as you suggest. I thought it was standard practice for nationals living abroad to vote in elections. I would have thought they could definetely do so in a referendum deciding their future.
William


Posts: 523
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12th Apr 2008
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 17.29hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
for example, that shining beacon of Scottish nationalism, Knight Of The British Empire and Spanish golfer Sean Connery?
HTH


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Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 17.40hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
Voting is only possible if you appear on the Electoral Role for your local constituency. - If you are abroad on holiday, or temporarily for work, or a member of the Armed Service etc., then you may obtain a Postal Vote.

Those resident abroad do not vote in UK elections. It really is that simple.

Also there is no legal basis to "Scottishness", which could be used to grant voting rights to "Scots" abroad. - This also has been agreed by the Westminster Parties prior to Devolution.

It's not like football, where a Scot's Granny can get you into the team winking smiley

I'm not saying I want "Freedom!"...I'm not sure, but I do know that any Referendum can only take place under established Electoral Law.

Anyway..William, what's all this stuff about "foreigners"..sounds a bit xenophobic to me ..? (Only kidding...sure, were all British eh?)
Mattun


Posts: 248
Joined: Mar 2006
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 17.52hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
I think the non-resident Scots issue will surge up the agenda if there is a referndum on independence. it probably didn't on devolution because there was a strong groundswell of support, so it didn't really matter.

It would be an issue on a Uk Euro referendum: From The Guardian in 2003

"Opponents of Tony Blair's ambition to take Britain into the eurozone as soon as possible reacted with anger last night to the possibility that more than 700,000 EU citizens living in the UK might be allowed to vote in a referendum.
Number 10 and the department of constitutional affairs refused to rule out the possibility that draft proposals may allow EU residents to vote as they do in local and Euro-elections. The pro-euro Financial Times was told by officials that the option was under "active consideration".

Up to a million eurozone citizens from the Republic of Ireland are already on the UK's electoral roll. Ten new EU members, due to join next year, will further swell the estimated 725,000 EU-UK residents who may become eligible. Britons living abroad may also get a vote, officials said."


It certainly was a bone of contention in the Iraqi constitutional referendum.

Though the constitutional referendum is over, the exclusion of expatriate Iraqis still rankles.

By Omar Anwar in London (ICR No. 150, 28-Oct-05)

Iraqis in Britain have expressed anger and frustration at being squeezed out of the referendum on Iraq’s constitution, which was officially approved this week.

Elections rules established under the previous de facto constitution, the Transitional Administrative Law, TAL, banned Iraqis abroad from voting in the plebiscite held earlier in October.

They were, however, given the right to vote in the January 2005 National Assembly elections and will be allowed to cast ballots from outside the country in the December parliamentary ballot.

Many Iraqis in the UK were angered by the referendum ban ruling, arguing it ran counter to the democratic ideals Iraq had strived to achieve.

“Are we Iraqis or not?” asked Haider Sadiq, an academic living in London. “They confiscated our rights, and we will be ruled by a constitution that we never took part in. When you deprive a large portion of people taking part in the constitution, it’s not democracy. That is confiscation of democracy.”

Anmar Jabbar, a physician from Nottingham, added, “This is not acceptable… we took part in the January elections, so why not now? I (wanted) to take part in the future of Iraq. We should have the freedom to vote.”


It also cropped up with the idea of a Palestinian referendum on recognising Israel.

"There were protests that the Palestinian Diaspora should not be excluded from a referendum that decides a national strategy.

Leader of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC), Ahmad Jibril, said recently that Palestinian refugees in exile should have a say in deciding such a strategy."



HTH


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Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 18.10hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
Yes, it has been a question in Palestine & Iraq. - Both of which were Blank Canvas in terms of Electoral Law.

However the UK has well-established law on this matter. Voting is based upon residency identified constituencies.

It's also vital to recognise the difference between Cutural Nationality, and your voting rights. - That's what West Lothian is about..It's not about being Scottish or English in yourself, but whether your Parliamentary Seat is in Scotland or England. - For example one of William's "foreigners" who is an MP for a Scottish Constituency, would be equally unacceptable ot vote on English bills.?

Electoral Law is well established in the UK, and it will remain the basis for who may vote in any referendum. - Despite obvious sentiments about nationality.

Anyway, it's obvious that there's a thaw in progress, from the banter smiling smiley

I'd like some snow on my constituency!
William


Posts: 523
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12th Apr 2008
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 18.30hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
It seems to me that the SNP is (almost) unique as a nationalist party, in that nationalism is based on "Scotland" (defined as a territory) rather than the "Scottish".

Defining what a Scot is, is very difficult, and open to abuse.

The SNP stance of an independent Scotland, no matter who lives there, is quite disturbing. I am not happy with the thought that any Tom Dick and Abdul living in Scotland at the time of the question will have a say.

This will be a major headache for the SNP, when a referedum is called, for real Scottish Nationlists all over the world will see what the SNP really want. And for whom.

For me, hundreds of years of Unionism doesn't seem to have impacted on the Scots identity, as a nation of people, very much at all. I think the SNPs assault on that: "independence within Europe" as a wholly dangerous thing. "Freedom" from England is a feeling deep within many Scots, not because they will feel more Scottish, but somehow the chip will be removed from the shoulder. The Law Of Unintended Consequences is very difficult to predict.
growwild


Posts: 3550
Joined: Oct 2005
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 21.00hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
"but somehow the chip will be removed from the shoulder"

The leech will stop feeding!!!!!!!


JC


Posts: 624
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27th Feb 2024
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Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 21.30hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
William Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don't seek to confuse, I just feel,
> instinctively, that there are a significant number
> of people in Scotland who shouldn't necessarily
> have a say on a independent Scotland. You are
> going to have hundreds of thousands of English
> voters deciding, possibly decisively, on the
> future of Scotland.

Well what's confusing to me is the idea that people other than those living in a country/region/council/company or whatever should have any say on what affects said country/region/council/company.

As HTH said, it's the electoral roll, and like it or not that's democracy.

As for your comment about anti-English, being worried about thousands of english people having a vote smacks more of anti-Englishness than anything else.





alan


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Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 22.04hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
Quote:
It seems to me that the SNP is (almost) unique as a nationalist party, in that nationalism is based on "Scotland" (defined as a territory) rather than the "Scottish".

Defining what a Scot is, is very difficult, and open to abuse.

The SNP stance of an independent Scotland, no matter who lives there, is quite disturbing. I am not happy with the thought that any Tom Dick and Abdul living in Scotland at the time of the question will have a say.


A 'Scot' in the specific context of a referendum is quite clear - anyone living in Scotland who is on the electorial register (this would include all EU citizens and persons from the rest of the UK currently resident - providing they get themselves on the register). The definition of a Scot is entirely irrelevent - unless you mistaking nationalism - as a movement for the right to national self determination - and Xenophobia (perhaps of the Little Englander Ilk?).
William


Posts: 523
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12th Apr 2008
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 22.48hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
So a Scottish/British soldier serving abroad, or stationed in Aldershot (for argument's sake) is not a Scot, but a Somalian Asylum Seeker with no cultural, political or emotional contact with Scotland is a Scot?

What a joke.

Your definition is doomed to failure - it will cause a lot of problems and resentment. Only today on the news it is claimed that up to 40% of young British Muslims do not consider themselves British in any way shape or form, and many of these same people will have a decision on the future of Scotland, yet millions of Scots working and living outside Scotland will not?

There is no mainstream party in Scotland, certainly not the SNP, that is offering Scotland self-determination. The SNP will just replace Westiminster for Brussels. The pound for the Euro. The British Army for a European Defence Force. Anti-Englishness for Pro-Europeanism. What exactly IS the point of Scottish self-determination when the issue is always skirted by the so called Nationlists?
alan


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27th Mar 2024
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Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 23.00hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
Quote:
So a Scottish/British soldier serving abroad,


Troops serving overseas have the vote.

If I moved to London to live for my work, I would be entitled to vote and be on the electorial register in London - why should I then have a vote for an election/referendum in a country I no longer live in? What you are suggesting is an absurdity - and no doubt that's the kind of absurdities that will be spread around in abundence as election day nears just to muddy the water as the UK government and political establishment seeks to scare Scotland into voting 'the right way'.

As for Europe - Scotland has historically had better a relationship with mainland Europe. As for the Euro, the Pound Sterling is not a Scottish currency, I certainly have no attachment to it and tbh would be perfectly happy to have Euros in my pocket.
HTH


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Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 23.06hrs on Mon 29 Jan 07
It's essential for Electoral rights to be based upon geography (where you live) rather than Race (Ethnicity), which is what you propose, William.

I understand your sentiments, but unfortunately disqualifying voters because you don't like their Race...is racism.

This is what distinguishes Nationalism (holding one land in common), from Racism (excluding your fellow citizens on basis of Race).

As I said, I don't vote SNP, but they are right to include all residents in their policies, and to seek their votes.

BTW:- As for Scottish soldiers, they will have voting rights in Scotland, if their regiment has a Scottish HQ. - Which I think answers that particular question.
stevomcd


Posts: 293
Joined: Nov 2005
Last Visited: 19:02
11th Nov 2010
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 09.34hrs on Tue 30 Jan 07
William Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It seems to me that the SNP is (almost) unique as
> a nationalist party, in that nationalism is based
> on "Scotland" (defined as a territory) rather than
> the "Scottish".
>
> Defining what a Scot is, is very difficult, and
> open to abuse.
>
> The SNP stance of an independent Scotland, no
> matter who lives there, is quite disturbing. I am
> not happy with the thought that any Tom Dick and
> Abdul living in Scotland at the time of the
> question will have a say.

I can only hope you're on the wind-up with this, because it comes across as racist xenophobia.

Anyone who is living in Scotland at the time of the question will have a say? I think that's something we should be proud of, not fear.

Scots living (permanently) abroad won't get the vote? Rightly so! If you want to have a role in determining the future of our country, live here!



Barney


Posts: 151
Joined: Oct 2004
Last Visited: 20:36
23rd Dec 2011
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 10.10hrs on Tue 30 Jan 07
William Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So a Scottish/British soldier serving abroad, or
> stationed in Aldershot (for argument's sake) is
> not a Scot, but a Somalian Asylum Seeker with no
> cultural, political or emotional contact with
> Scotland is a Scot?
>
> What a joke.

Well, I'm no Scot, but I've been living here for over half my life now, and I have no plans to leave and head back home. Should I be excluded form deciding on homw the country I live in is goverened?

I didn't vote on whether London should have a directly elected mayor, and I've noever voted for the London Assembly, because I left London when I was 18. I have voted in many Scottish elections, because this is where I live. And yes, my neighbour from Bangladesh has also voted in Scottish elections because this is also her home.

My girlfriend is from Aberdeen, and she gets a vote on how Scotland is goverened, because she lives her. Her brother lives in London, and he gest a say on how *my* hometown is governed, whereas I get a say on how *his* hometown is goverened.

As it happens, I vote for pro-indepence parties, but I totally reserve the right to vote a different way if I feel like it, and my Englishness should not be an issue either way.
William


Posts: 523
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Last Visited: 08:32
12th Apr 2008
Re: Politics and Snowsports
Date Posted: 12.02hrs on Tue 30 Jan 07
growwild Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> "but somehow the chip will be removed from the
> shoulder"
>
> The leech will stop feeding!!!!!!!

That's interesting - do you expect Scotland to be a net benefactor or net contributor to Europe's coffers? Are you familiar with Europe's energy policy?


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